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Resolution Copper - Queen Creek Coalition: News Release
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By Fred AmRhein
May 22, 2013

Rocky Climber wrote:
Makes me glad I relocated out of state!


RC,

So, like yourself, it appears that other out of stater's continue to maintain an interest in Oak Flat, albeit for religious freedom reasons and maybe not climbing. I received this earlier today:

A Religious Awareness program at Oak Flat (sponsored by San Carlos), will be held this Friday, May 24, 2013.

The program will begin at 10 am and continue throughout the day, ending with a sacred prayer from 6 to 9 pm. Wendsler Nosie, Chairman Rambler, Tribal speakers and out-of-sate representatives (clergy, civil/human rights advocates, NAACP members, activists, etc...) will all be making presentations, listening to concerns and speaking on behalf of the religious and sacred significance of the Oak Flat campground and surrounding areas.

The program is open to the public and will include a traditional lunch of acorn stew (at noon). Presentations will address Native American legacy to the land, history of the area, hiking venues of significance (petroglyphs), medicinal plants/herbs, food sources and a general enhanced informative perspective about the Oak Flat, Gaan Canyon and entire area as it relates to all people of the region. Seating and shading may be limited, but CC&RMC will provide some pop-ups, chairs, water and snacks (you might want to bring your own).


And Rep. Gosar submitted documents at the House Hearing to suggest that Native Americans haven't really had a presence at Oak Flat for religious/cultural purposes . . . hmmm, maybe he'll show up for the history lesson? [Firsthand] Facts Will Set You Free as he said I suppose?

Fred


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By kirra
May 23, 2013

Manny- It is a shame you & I usually do better offline at best. I have respected this and ask you to do the same. For now it suffices to say you know nothing of who I am.

The original QCC was created around the time I left AZ. As a former member of the FOQC, I was part of that creative process prior to you becoming a member. For whatever reason or location I was told I was to be an auxiliary member. I remained in constant contact with QCC matters regularly with Fred & Erik and respectfully suggest further research beyond this thread. Your support of Erik Filsinger in other matters are not of my concern yet they have been historically noted.

By appearing to shout conspiracy, I am coming from a point of view of how things do seem to appear at face value publicly. Attempts here to "brush me aside" as a side show distraction instead of addressing the issues is sad and contradicts your own point of keeping focus in Congress. You and I HAVE THE SAME GOAL, we just have different ways of seeing how to get there.

Any acknowledgement of my time posting all Senate & House updated contacts for the 13th Session here on MountainProject? What have you personally done lately to assist?

David is not worth responding to except to say he needs to get a life w/o me and I hope he can do that someday soon
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Fred - The last line of Manny's post is indeed the only thing that matters. Drama had always surrounded this issue even w/o me but sometimes the trees need shaking so the nuts can drop out. Controversy can sometimes encourage clarification imo.

While I still may be upset about what Erik & Paul did, I am more respectful of time involved and their actions seem to have required more efforts from those concerned. The climbing community has always appeared united before Congress and I think this made good appearances for our group. Time needs to be applied now toward the sincerity of our message instead of just focusing on technical issues surrounding the exchange. To this I am sorry that all involved on our side must now share the burden.

Sincere thanks for your time and response as always. I hope you are correct about Congress and what they see happening here in our community.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

My posts on this thread for the most part should be read as personal yet also reflect a larger viewpoint of how things do appear publicly.

Since my last post, I had a long conversation with Curt. The fact that he and the AF have been lobbying hard this year has not been directly communicated to the community at large and I will give him that opportunity to respond. I have been forwarded letters submitted in D.C. It's good to know that there is still work being done against this exchange. I would like to thank him here for taking the time to communicate to avoid further misunderstandings and wish more would follow that lead.

It would be great if the local group or the AF could offer updated info on a consistent basis or perhaps initiate a mail-list. Though it would be nice, not everyone reads mountain project. Many people do care outside of AZ and need to be kept informed. It's unfortunate that sometimes instead of getting answers it turns into a shooting gallery. If for no other good reason it increases readership & awareness and to that end I guess it serves a purpose.

I still believe it is a more difficult task to explain being against the land exchange, while supporting a "license" deal held by folks who historically have supported the exchange. The more distance the better between any such *secret financial deal* which still has yet to be revealed.

Oak Flat belongs to everyone not just the Arizona locals.

Just my view of course, carry on-


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By manuel rangel
From Tempe, Arizona
May 23, 2013
Trying to redpoint The Ugly 11c; steeper than it looks and the rock is scary in spots but good enough.

Kirra, you can't be faulted for your passion or colorful language. I certainly enjoy it. This was an excellent post and you bring up a lot of good information.

I have thanked and acknowledged your work in other posts and I wish I were better at conveying such. Keep up the good work. An excellent point was to share more information about legislative activity on our side. Curt keeps a lot of people appraised at CCA meetings about that stuff. Sorry, we should communicate it better. It just seems to be an ongoing effort and becomes a drudge. Probably what RCM would like to happen.

Keeping everyone fired up is a good thing. Let's get it together though. Thanks again for all you have done Kirra.


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By kirra
May 23, 2013

manuel rangel wrote:
Kirra, you can't be faulted for your passion or colorful language. I certainly enjoy it. This was an excellent post and you bring up a lot of good information. I have thanked and acknowledged your work in other posts and I wish I were better at conveying such. Keep up the good work. An excellent point was to share more information about legislative activity on our side. Curt keeps a lot of people appraised at CCA meetings about that stuff. Sorry, we should communicate it better. It just seems to be an ongoing effort and becomes a drudge. Probably what RCM would like to happen. Keeping everyone fired up is a good thing. Let's get it together though. Thanks again for all you have done Kirra.

Thank you Manny

This has been an ongoing slog. Yes let's re-group and keep it together. Any ideas (?) -I think you had mentioned a petition once, any action there? Curt invited me to tonights meeting but my transporter is in the shop. Please keep me informed as I really want to hear all about what you folks are doing- many thanks for your support.

Cheers -Kirra


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By manuel rangel
From Tempe, Arizona
May 23, 2013
Trying to redpoint The Ugly 11c; steeper than it looks and the rock is scary in spots but good enough.

I did mention it but it was near the end of the busy time at QC; fail. We should pursue something like that as a reason to contact our congress people.


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By kirra
May 24, 2013

hi manny- I'm referring to recent Blue Frog thread: Climbers want the Resolution Copper mine in AZ?"

your thread posted Apr 17 : .."We have to show our support for keeping the land as is, swap or no swap. Maybe a petition out there someday? Over a weekend?"

I'm sorry if I read too far into your suggestion, I thought it was a good one


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By Superior Resident
May 24, 2013

Sorry, I don't mean to be the 5th wheel, odd man out, outcast, redheaded step child, trader, or any other negative term I'll probably receive by posting this.... BUT - I just feel that US climbers as a whole are very inconsderate at this point. I know Resolution has reached out, bent over backwards and has come to the table on several occasions and has been more than generous. I think, by us holding out we are going to end up with the short end of the stick and possibly left "hanging". The only other point I want to make is that this land exchange and supporting the mine is for a greater cause, its more than saving our climbing areas. This mine will see to it that many families will have jobs, incomes, educations and the town businesses will come back to life and give the town a chance to get back on its feet and sustain itself so that when the mine goes away, Superior will continue to exist.

From an unselfish perspective, I support Resolution Copper because the pros outweight the cons.


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By Superior Resident
May 24, 2013

On a second subject, and to address the "other" concern that is floating around out there.... First, I am a long time resident of Superior - born and raised. So, with first hand expierence, I can speak to the statements of the native americans using the Oak Flat area as a religous site.... This is not true and never has been used for acorn picking or any other native american activies. They've attempted to recently, only for demonstration purposed. Lame.
If the facts were true about these areas being sacred, then the past motorcycle competitions, the past rock climbing bash and other recrational activies shouldn't be allowed in these areas.


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By manuel rangel
From Tempe, Arizona
May 24, 2013
Trying to redpoint The Ugly 11c; steeper than it looks and the rock is scary in spots but good enough.

Superior Resident: I have been a party to a lot of what you call RCM "bending over and come to the table" stuff since I was a member of the QCC. Not once did they specifically meet any of our requests. I never saw an answer to a question that didn't leave a huge hole for interpretation. Finally, the group broke apart and the remainder agreed to support the land swap for an agreement which I am not privy to.

I also wish to see Superior survive. I am not a resident but I do climb in the Superior area. My Superior friends and I share the same view that the current legislation is bad. It is not a jobs bill. I don't know how many jobs will be offered to Superior but I don't see it as the answer. Has RCM offered you a job?

The last part of your statement, that people using the land removes its being sacred is confused. I find many places sacred as have the Apache. The truth is, according to John Bourke (Gen. Crook's aide), the Apache were driven out when copper was found in Queen Creek Canyon in the 1870s. I'm sure it was sacred then.

Plus, I believe RCM's actions will affect more than the people of Superior. Cities downstream from Superior will be definitely impacted by this mine. We need to find a way to keep Superior alive and prospering. I just don't think a mine is the answer.


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By BGBingham
May 24, 2013
night ice

Superior Resident wrote:
On a second subject, and to address the "other" concern that is floating around out there.... First, I am a long time resident of Superior - born and raised. So, with first hand expierence, I can speak to the statements of the native americans using the Oak Flat area as a religous site.... This is not true and never has been used for acorn picking or any other native american activies. They've attempted to recently, only for demonstration purposed. Lame. If the facts were true about these areas being sacred, then the past motorcycle competitions, the past rock climbing bash and other recrational activies shouldn't be allowed in these areas.


I lived in Globe area from 1991 to 2006. I climbed in the Oak Flat area regularly during this time. I saw and talked to Native American's at Oak Flat regularly during this time - usually harvesting acorns. I also knew an old man that lived there in the winter from 91 to 94 who knew about it from the depression era when he worked for the WPA at Oak Flat. He showed me artifacts and told of amazing 1930's era finds of native artifacts.

RCM has always maintained that there is only one way to mine this area and please note, that method will destroy it. Other methods wouldn't and they would employ more people. This places the whole issue into the realm of class warfare. Many of the supporters in congress and locally are all about gov't being too big and powerful, yet they very willingly fall in line with exactly how deep pocketed RCM wants it to go down. Locals such as yourself should be putting RCM's feet to the fire and care about your home environment, but you won't because historically the mining company is master and provider. Heck, RCM management can't even soil themselves with a head office in Superior. It is in the Biltmore area of Phoenix.


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By Lindajft
From maricopa, AZ
May 25, 2013
The loaf

Welcome Supie resident
I'm Linda and part of the Concerned Climbers, the group that still carries the torch
Curious how you heard of us?
(There are a lot in our community on here that are passionate and would love to hear your ideas of a solution. As we have been working on ths issue for a decade now)

It is sad Superior doesn't seem to have other substaining economic venues. (I often wonder if Bisbee or Jerome would be good models.)

I just got home from the San Carlos Apache prayer ceremony up on Oak Flats. It was beautiful as always.
There must be a way to not destroy that land.


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By Lindajft
From maricopa, AZ
May 25, 2013
The loaf

Just as as point of reference for the public:

Resolution Copper (locally) is well aware that a lot of climbers have not stopped the opposition to this current Land Swap proposal. In speaking with an employee yesterday at the Oak Flat gathering, a few of of them are aware of the many issues the different groups have with this legislation.

I am grateful to be part of the voice for Oak Flat and the surrounding areas such as Queen Creek (Gaan Canyon) and the Town of Superior.


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By Fred AmRhein
May 28, 2013

Superior Resident wrote:
. . . BUT - I just feel that US climbers as a whole are very inconsderate at this point. I know Resolution has reached out, bent over backwards and has come to the table on several occasions and has been more than generous. . .


Consider that Oak Flat is a protected dedicated Federal Recreation area (per Public Land Order 1229 in 1955) specifically set aside from mining activities and that never has an area set aside from mining in such a manner been traded to a mining company to mine it. (at least nobody has been able to identify such a case so far).

Thus, a precedent is being set; one that is problematic for many who rely on public lands similarly protected.

Personally, I think that climbers are being very considerate from these protected land's perspective.

I respect your perspective but having been at the table with RCM I submit that while they came to the table they were also very quick to take things off of the table, rather vague and vacillating when it came to specifics, and in many important details unwilling to commit. Many who have dealt with RCM have come to characterize their tactics as "dangling a carrot" only to take it away once somebody attempts to take a bite.

Just my view.

Fred


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By Fred AmRhein
May 28, 2013

Superior Resident wrote:
On a second subject, and to address the "other" concern that is floating around out there.... First, I am a long time resident of Superior - born and raised. So, with first hand expierence, I can speak to the statements of the native americans using the Oak Flat area as a religous site.... This is not true and never has been used for acorn picking or any other native american activies. They've attempted to recently, only for demonstration purposed. Lame. If the facts were true about these areas being sacred, then the past motorcycle competitions, the past rock climbing bash and other recrational activies shouldn't be allowed in these areas.


It's interesting that the oral history you and other in-movers such as that provided by Rep. Gosar in the recent House Hearing is offered as if it overrules and contradicts the oral tradition of the Native Americans who predate the Non-Native culture's tenure by many generations?

Perhaps you should read Helen Baldock Craig's book "Within Adobe Walls 1877-1973" which provides an historical glimpse into the area from an original settler's family point of view. Her family settled the Top Of The World area just a few short sections of land to the east of Oak Flat in the 1870's.

In her book she discusses how ranch hands told stories about Native artifacts found along the deep foot path that ran/runs down Gaan (Devils)Canyon, of how the Natives visited their site of planted oaks to gather acorns for their traditional uses each year, and of how poorly the Native's were treated at the hands of the in-moving non-Natives.

It's an interesting read.

Hope it helps.

Fred


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By ClimbandMine
May 31, 2013

"The last part of your statement, that people using the land removes its being sacred is confused. I find many places sacred as have the Apache. The truth is, according to John Bourke (Gen. Crook's aide), the Apache were driven out when copper was found in Queen Creek Canyon in the 1870s. I'm sure it was sacred then."

I find copper sacred, as did early Meso-americans (which pre-dated Apaches, I might add).

Thus, I reserve my First Amendment right to harvest copper from Oak Flat.

I find the harvesting of acorns blasphemous to my religion and demand that the act be stopped.



The "sacred" argument is BS and can be used both ways.


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By CJC
May 31, 2013

ClimbandMine wrote:
I find copper sacred, as did early Meso-americans (which pre-dated Apaches, I might add). Thus, I reserve my First Amendment right to harvest copper from Oak Flat. I find the harvesting of acorns blasphemous to my religion and demand that the act be stopped.


derp derp derp


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By Davis Stevenson
From Flagstaff, Arizona
May 31, 2013
Following up a new route out in the Mojave Desert.  Info coming soon maybe?  Fun 5.10 hands and fingers.

Fred AmRhein wrote:
Consider that Oak Flat is a protected dedicated Federal Recreation area (per Public Land Order 1229 in 1955) specifically set aside from mining activities.


End of story. There should be NO mining there.

Protected land is protected land, swapping it away defeats the original intent.

I've contacted guvm'nt about this, anything else I can be doing from up in Flag?


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By ClimbandMine
May 31, 2013

"It's interesting that the oral history you and other in-movers such as that provided by Rep. Gosar in the recent House Hearing is offered as if it overrules and contradicts the oral tradition of the Native Americans who predate the Non-Native culture's tenure by many generations?"

"In-movers"? "Non-Natives"? Give me a break. Every American citizen alive today was born here, just like every American Indian. The American Indian lineage just goes back a generation or three longer than ours before their descendants crossed the pond. They are immigrants just like us - lets not forget that. They just crossed the bridge 8 or 9,000 years earlier. There are even theories and archeological tidbits that suggest they might not have been "First".
So let's tone down the PC bullshit.


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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
May 31, 2013
Toofast

ClimbandMine wrote:
The American Indian lineage just goes back a generation or three longer than ours before their descendants crossed the pond. They are immigrants just like us - lets not forget that. They just crossed the bridge 8 or 9,000 years earlier. There are even theories and archeological tidbits that suggest they might not have been "First". So let's tone down the PC bullshit.


8000 years is closer to 400 generations.


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By Ben Beard
From Superior, AZ
Jun 1, 2013
roo, my only son, the stare that takes down a herd of 'stock

Geir wrote:
8000 years is closer to 400 generations.



Apaches only moved into the southwest around (maybe) 1000 AD, not necessarily 8000 years ago. The first Spaniards came in around the late 1500s, right?


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By Fred AmRhein
Jun 3, 2013

ClimbandMine wrote:
Every American citizen alive today was born here, just like every American Indian. The American Indian lineage just goes back a generation or three longer than ours before their descendants crossed the pond. They are immigrants just like us - lets not forget that. They just crossed the bridge 8 or 9,000 years earlier. There are even theories and archeological tidbits that suggest they might not have been "First". So let's tone down the PC bullshit.


Talk about BS . . .

Firstly, "Every American citizen alive today was born here?"

False, eg., Arnold Schwarzenegger and my neighbor born in England who is now a citizen.

Secondly, "generation or three?"

Umm, take BBeard's numbers, 1000 AD, 500 years before 1492 +/-, 20 years/generation and that makes about 25 generations before the Spanish and about 40 generations before the settling wave of Americans (ca 1800 or so in Arizona)

So, the current Natives had a historical presence probably at least 40 generations before Americans materialized and moved into the Superior/Oak Flat/Top of the World area. I'm kind of thinking this could be considered a rational and acceptable logical conclusion based on actual archeology; not just an innuendo or "tidbit" injected otherwise to undermine or misdirect.

Its rather amazing to see the efforts to trivialize, minimize, and dismiss what are obviously legitimate claims of the Natives by RCM's operatives; it's really entertaining and simply false.

Just my view, no PC intended.

Fred


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By Red
From Arizona
Jun 3, 2013
Cobra Kai

Davis Stevenson wrote:
I've contacted guvm'nt about this, anything else I can be doing from up in Flag?


Spread the word and encourage others to do the same.


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By The Phoenix
Jun 3, 2013
The Phoenix

ClimbandMine wrote:
Thus, I reserve my First Amendment right to harvest copper from Oak Flat.


What? Did you eat lead pain chips as a child or breath in too much mining dust? You're about as ignorant as they come. Folks like you need vets to put you down before you do any more harm to our society.

And just a guess - do you attend your local tea party meetings? Hows the Earl Grey?


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By ClimbandMine
Jun 3, 2013

Fred AmRhein wrote:
Talk about BS . . . Firstly, "Every American citizen alive today was born here?" False, eg., Arnold Schwarzenegger and my neighbor born in England who is now a citizen. Secondly, "generation or three?" Umm, take BBeard's numbers, 1000 AD, 500 years before 1492 +/-, 20 years/generation and that makes about 25 generations before the Spanish and about 40 generations before the settling wave of Americans (ca 1800 or so in Arizona) So, the current Natives had a historical presence probably at least 40 generations before Americans materialized and moved into the Superior/Oak Flat/Top of the World area. I'm kind of thinking this could be considered a rational and acceptable logical conclusion based on actual archeology; not just an innuendo or "tidbit" injected otherwise to undermine or misdirect. Its rather amazing to see the efforts to trivialize, minimize, and dismiss what are obviously legitimate claims of the Natives by RCM's operatives; it's really entertaining and simply false. Just my view, no PC intended. Fred




Annoying when someone misdirects, misinterprets, and posts incorrect facts, isn't it?

'Cause that's what environmentalists have been doing for 40 years.


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By ClimbandMine
Jun 3, 2013

The Phoenix wrote:
What? Did you eat lead pain chips as a child or breath in too much mining dust? You're about as ignorant as they come. Folks like you need vets to put you down before you do any more harm to our society. And just a guess - do you attend your local tea party meetings? Hows the Earl Grey?



OK, give up Cave Rock (oh, wait, too late - we already rolled over to the Indians on that...), don't poach the Totem Pole ('cause we in-mover climbers ALWAYS respect the Indians), and while you are at it stop driving, using your cell phone, computer, and anything else that has copper in it.

Then we'll talk about ignorant.


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