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By Tim Zander
Apr 26, 2012
Also thanks for putting the bolts back, it always struck me as pretty dbaggy to remove the bolts just to limit access

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By Bud Martin
From Bozeman, MT
Apr 26, 2012
I was there that day. Just finished rapping when she fell. It made a loud noise when she landed on the belay ledge. I think it had nothing to do with the bolt and more to do with the fact that it was her first route in the desert. Anyways, I called SAR and the first responder was on the scene in 20 minutes, pretty impressive. All in all there were maybe 20 folks with the rescue teams there and two helicopters in the end. They all worked together with good efficiency. Here's a photo.

And in my opinion the chopped bolt was never necessary it is like 5.6 to clip the now first (previously second) bolt. If you can lead OR follow the catwalk/diving board you can clip the bolt with ease. Thats my $0.02


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By Peter Franzen
Administrator
From Phoenix, AZ
Apr 26, 2012
Belay
Bud Martin wrote:
And in my opinion the chopped bolt was never necessary it is like 5.6 to clip the now first (previously second) bolt. If you can lead OR follow the catwalk/diving board you can clip the bolt with ease. Thats my $0.02

I respectfully disagree. Just because there is a section of rock that is below the grade of the crux doesn't mean that it shouldn't be protected. Plenty of 5.12s have easy 5.10 sections-- should the easier climbing on those routes go unprotected as well?

The purpose of a bolt is to prevent injuries or death as a result of a fall. As I recall there is no gear in the section of the climb that we are talking about, so a bolt is perfectly reasonable despite the relative ease of the climbing.

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By Greg D
From Here
Apr 26, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W.
Mtnfly wrote:
I'm not a lawyer, but it brings up an interesting issue? What responsibility does a bolt chopper own? What if someone tampered with bolts so they would fail, and someone was hurt? Would they not be prosecuted? Take it out of the rock climbing world, if someone loosened all the bolts on a fire escape, and it failed, would they not own that action of tampering. I do know the public, in general, would prob agree that if someone chopped a bolt.... And a person was killed....expecting that bolt to be there...would think the chopper be held accountable.


She had no obligation to climb to and beyond this missing bolt. Her choice.


Tampering with a bolt to cause it to fail would be a different story.

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By Bud Martin
From Bozeman, MT
Apr 26, 2012
Peter Franzen wrote:
The purpose of a bolt is to prevent injuries or death as a result of a fall. As I recall there is no gear in the section of the climb that we are talking about, so a bolt is perfectly reasonable despite the relative ease of the climbing.


What you say makes sense. But my thought is that with or without the chopped bolt the leader has to essentially solo 20ft or so to get to the bolt. The first bolt was only a few feet below the second (now first) bolt because it was a bolt ladder you could pull on. I guess what I am trying to say is that with or without the chopped bolt you have to climb unprotected ground before officially being "on belay." I am all for safe climbing, but given the traversing nature of the 4th pitch and the mandatory climbing above the anchor on the summit it seems to me that worrying about the missing bolt on pitch 3 is not so necessary.


user id wrote:
what is the issue then?


From what I saw and after talking to a person in her party, it appeared to be a climbing within your ability issue.

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By BigMoveMike
From prescott
Apr 26, 2012
Pente 5.11 Onsight
Ever body knows if you can climb 5.10 an Vertical Endeavors you can climb 5.10 on desert mud. I am yet to find out who the climber is in this case so i'm not saying that's the situation, but I have spent some time around the MPLS/St. Paul climbing scene and thinking your hot shit and then getting yourself in to trouble on real rock seems to be a recurring theme.

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By Matt Hoffmann
From Squamish
Apr 26, 2012
 Matt Hoffmann - Matt on 3AM crack
As I said in a previous post I climbed this about 2 weeks ago. I felt that the climb was well within my ability but, was still extremely cautious and a bit nervous making the moves to clip the bolt. In a fall trying to clip that bolt, one would (if they are lucky) hit the belay ledge and (if they are unlucky) roll down the chimney hitting everything.

Maybe she shouldn't have been on this route, maybe it was above her ability or maybe she just slipped. I don't think people deserve to be subject to that kind of fall because they slipped (and yes, I know the counter argument that climbers accept the risk, etc etc). Like it or not a lot of people will be getting on Ancient Art. Let's do our part to keep it safe.

Also, for what it's worth another bolt in that rock isn't going to hurt anyone (given the numerous bolts, chains and slings already which I believe were added well after the FA) and it will likely prevent more cases like this. Go for it.

One other curious thing is the climb doesn't seem to be rated PG13 and I did not read much about risk when doing research on it. I personally considered it a little dicey given the crumbly rock (iffy gear) and the potential for nasty falls on p3 and p4. Not really R rated since the terrain is fairly mellow but, terrain to be careful on. Just curious if I'm the only one that thinks that.

My 2c for what it's worth.

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By Dow Williams
From Saint George, UT
Apr 26, 2012
Dow Williams, 2011
Very good posts Bud...the climb if fine the way it is currently rigged. We can't wind down these climbs for everyone. This won't be the last accident on Ancient Art, even if you added via ferrata which I am sure would please many.

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By Alex Quitiquit
From Salt Lake City
Apr 26, 2012
meow
When I first saw this post, I assumed she had taken the dreaded whipper off of the "boardwalk"... I imagined her attempting the diving board *hump* and sliding off, taking the potential 50 foot whipper smacking everything in its path. I then saw it was the 3rd pitch, where the first bolt is missing.

I have nothing but sympathy for this climber. Everyone has been, or will be, in that situation where you are making a seemingly easy clip and for some god-forsake reason you peel off. My partner had no problem reaching this clip but it is fairly runout off the belay ledge. I agree there needs to be a bolt to replace the missing one.

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By Toby Butterfield
From Portland, OR
Apr 27, 2012
Fear and Loathing.
Sam/Larry -- I'm in the Creek for the next few weeks, and was climbing with Bud when the accident happened. I have zero experience bolting, but I know both of you do, and if you need an extra body to help out, drop me a PM.

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By the Descender
From . . . CO
Apr 27, 2012
My shadow is forcing me into the overhanging crux....
Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:
I might have my pitches confused... Larry, lets you and I, maybe in the next few weeks, go out there on a weekday morning and redo the obvious with glue ins. I have the technology. There is no reason for a trade route like Ancient Art to be made into a dangerous test peace.



If this is the philosophy, then someone oughta retro-bolt Colorado Ridge too.

Thanks -

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By Wally
From Denver
Apr 27, 2012
Bud - did you lead that third pitch? Maybe you are six feet two, and or a strong and bold climber? There is no pro (perhaps a mank piece down low that likely won't hold and you would likely deck before that piece comes into play) before the bolt. Reaching the bolt was hard and committing - I asked my partner to watch me. Yes, I was a bit sketched. And none of this elitist crap about I didn't belong on the route, I recently climbed the north face of castleton clean, and I also climbed Ancient Art clean that day - no aid for me.

Sam - I appreciate your offer to climb this route and consider replacing fixed protection that was removed. My opinion, if it isn't obvious from my comments above, is that a lower bolt on the third pitch is a good idea.

Perhaps it would be good to let us know how we can support your efforts. Right now I don't have time to contribute, but I do have funds to contribute. Are you getting your gear throught the ASCA, or through some other organization? If it is coming from your own pocket, I am happy to send funds directly to you.

Climb ohn. Wally

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By Cindy Mitchell
Apr 27, 2012
Racking up for the 3rd pitch of Ruper
Bud Martin wrote:
And in my opinion the chopped bolt was never necessary it is like 5.6 to clip the now first (previously second) bolt. If you can lead OR follow the catwalk/diving board you can clip the bolt with ease. Thats my $0.02


I've climbed this route twice. Not to point out the obvious but, your statement: if you can lead OR follow the catwalk/diving board....

If she fell clipping the bolt on the THIRD pitch, she would have no way of knowing if she could lead OR follow the catwalk/diving board because its the FOURTH pitch.

5.6??? Just like Umph Slot is 5.8 instead of the concensus 10d?

Sam and friends: Big props to you and your efforts!

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By Peter Franzen
Administrator
From Phoenix, AZ
Apr 27, 2012
Belay
Wally wrote:
Right now I don't have time to contribute, but I do have funds to contribute. Are you getting your gear throught the ASCA, or through some other organization? If it is coming from your own pocket, I am happy to send funds directly to you. Climb ohn. Wally

++

If you want a few bucks for a 6-pack after the bolt is up shoot me your PayPal account info.

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By Toby Butterfield
From Portland, OR
May 2, 2012
Fear and Loathing.
I led the third pitch free when Bud and I did this. I am 6'2". Let's just say that's coloring my perception of the climbing to the second bolt and leave it at that I suppose. Obviously there must be some difficulties there if you're shorter based on what people have been saying. My bad.

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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
May 5, 2012
Middle
Sounds like the bolting got done. Thanks Sam and Larry.

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