I was thinking about replacing the two bolts on the 3rd pitch of Kor-Ingalls. I'm not sure of the community's feelings on this, so please, let me know (I would appreciate not having my head bitten off). I don't want to start a s**tstorm about overbolting, etcetera, I have my own feelings on the issue, as we all do. I do think, however, that bolts that are existing should be bomber, and the last time I was on the route, the two hangers were cheap, stamped steel, and spinning, w/ the bolts sticking about 1" out of the rock. Like I said, let me know.
-Louis

I say replace them

I'm not against replacing bolts that were there on the first ascent and are now unsafe. Since this is an ultra-classic route I have a some questions though...


Do you climb in Moab a lot?

How many old bolts have you pulled in sandstone?

Can you pull them without scarring the rock?

Will you be reusing the existing holes?

How many bolts have you placed in sandstone?

What kind of bolts would you use to replace them?

Again, I think the original bolts should be replaced, I would just prefer it be done by someone with a TON of experience in this area since we're talking about one of the most iconic and historic routes in the desert. (I'm not saying that you don't fit this description Louis, I'm just asking... :)

Cheers,
Brad

I'm going to be out there the end of the month and from your description and that of others I'd like to climb it and clip a new glue in that will last for a while than clip some manky old 1/4 incher that probably is unlikely to even hold body weight. I agree that it should be done by someone who will do a nice job.

Not more than two years ago I most definitely clipped a sling to one of those bolts and stood on it.

So it will hold body weight.

On a side note, does the 5.9 rating refer to staying in the OW or the face moves?

-Eric

I'd say replace the bolts. The same problem exists elsewhere on Castleton and on The Priest, and probably a lot of other places in the desert. I'd go and replace the ones on Honeymoon Chimney but I'm too chicken to climb it again.

Do you know if those are the original FA bolts? If so, they would have some historical value. If you do replace them, I suggest auctioning the old ones (maybe on eBay) to raise money for some worthy cause. Layton's health care expenses spring immediately to mind.

Edit: Just saw the post above--so much for my idea.

Why not discuss this with Sam Lightner, who has possibly replaced more desert sandstone bolts than anyone (In recent history?). Doesn't he technically have a fund or something for this work? He typically makes pretty reasonable judgement calls in this endeavor (that is personal opinion of course).

I'm completely against ANY retrobolting in the desert that occurs by people on their own, willy nilly. I realize that the orignial poster is specifically trying to avoid this, but I think these types of choices should only be made after some sort of *discussion* and *consensus* by the *local community*. To that, I would add that MP.com is only a (probably quite small) sampling of the community.

Given all of the above, I'm still *in general* against retrobolting in the desert. Desert climbing is dodgy by definition, and I feel people should accept this dodginess. Like eric said they still hold body weight, that should be good enough.

I've climbed this route in the last two years and didn't see any problem at all. Where some see problems, others see adventure!

I say replace them if a reliable source has been up there THIS YEAR and confirms that they are in need of replacing. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning that bolts shouldn't be replaced in the desert. By that rational, should we all only use suspect cams and biners in the desert. I'm ALL for keeping the adventure in climbing, but a bolt is a bolt. It might as well be a good one. For me REbolting and RETRObolting are completely different things. In my opinion, rebolting restores a route to it's original level of risk, while retrobolting often rapes a route of it's character and style. These are just my opinions, so if you disagree and would like continue the discussion please do so RESPECTFULLY.

i say replace them. if someone doesn't like it they don't have to clip it.

The Kor Ingals is on my spring list... I broke my ankle and am recovering from it. IT will be done when Brad B. agrees to carry everything up there for me, which he has recently promised...
Sam

My apologies, my memory was incorrect. It was the single bolt down low on the 3rd pitch. The 2 protecting the OW section looked solid. The low bolt is sticking about 3/4" out of the sandstone. But, considering that I just took a 10' fall on it a couple weeks ago when my feet slipped and my head was somewhere else, I'd say it's good to go :) Placing a 1.25 DMM TCU about 2 ft. above the bolt will make you feel better. Or, just don't be a meathead and watch your feet.
-L

Of course replace the bolts! The crux bolt, third bolt on the third pitch, is not the original. It was replaced by a friend of mine in the mid 1980's and is a 3/8" five-piece with SMC hanger. It is an amazingly bad spinner now.

I'll use a locking draw until a good 1/2" is placed. Because of the loose hanger, my draw un-clipped itself from this bolt recently.

Pete and John are right about a big cam working better than a bolt. However, the tradition is that climbers prefer this route because it goes without bringing all the big stuff.

Email me via MP if any of you want help. I only have a hand drill. But my wife and I love to do the hike with heavy packs and have time to climb.

I was just on the route about a week and half ago so for what it's worth, here's what I thought.
1st Pitch- don't remember which one but at least one of the bolts seemed marginally questionable.
3rd Pitch- I pulled the pin halfway out by hand. The rest of the fixed gear was questionable as well. We left a solid nut (booty from the route actually!), to back things up for the rap.
bolts on P3- Not inspireing.
By and by, the bad ones seemed like normal fair for a more obscure route not a frequented classic. I say replace what you think is crap Sam and let the rest go for another day.
Something my partner and I found much scarrier than the fixed pro were the set ups folks had rigged with some of the tat. I'm talking slip-knots rigged so that when I pulled on the leg of webbing it popped right outta the piece. Shit knots and just generally crap rigging on alot of the tat. We pulled all the f'd up shit and left the solid rigging in place. It makes me worry about having to carry a bag of bones and blood out instead of climbing a classic. I hate bones and blood!. Anyone who's just learning the whole anchor deal, get a book and practice.

My .02, maybe that was a full dimes worth.
Tony
Thanks for all the work you've already done through out the area folks.

I was on it two weeks ago. My third time on it in 3 years.

Crux pitch.
1. the bolts are not original. SMC hangers.
2. they are not sticking out 1 inch.
3. they hold more than body weight. My partner fell on the upper one. He weighs about 200.
4. a big bro or multiple big bros can easily protect this pitch.
5. this is not a sport climb. calling it a classic doesn't make it any closer to one.

My suggestions:

The op should not do any rebolting.
Anyone that wants to clip new glue ins should not lead in the desert.
If someone rebolts, please do it in the utmost style. Leave no trace. Use existing holes.

Kor placed these cause nothing else was available in those days. Consider leaving it as is. Bring some big bros if you want security in an insecure world.

I just climbed K-I two days ago and here are my new thoughts after experiencing the route:

-The bolt is pretty decent for the desert. I've seen better, but usually I've seen worse. They're not stamped sheet metal currently. The bolt on North Chimney is worse.
-If I'm remembering correctly there is a good gear placement before the bolt. No reason to have a bolt if there is good gear nearby. There's two of them anyways.
-I've never used a big bro but size wise it seems like they'd protect the moves after the crux. You could just crawl into the back of the chimney. If you can do the crux then you can run out the last bit, it's easier in my opinion. Classic status does not mean the character of the climb should be changed. Part of that character is runouts and sub-par gear.
-If I would have climbed up and clipped a new glue in I would of wondered why it was there.

Big bros look weird to me, they just don't look like something that long could take a fall without breaking in half. Anybody whipped on the big ones?

To everyone who said you shouldn't climb in the desert if you want to clip glue-ins. Want and will are two different things. I want to clip glue-ins but I've never seen a glue-in out in the desert. I'll clip whatever is available as necessary to increase my chances of not splattering my skull all over the belay stations.

I've not bolted anything but from what I've seen, experienced, discussed, and heard from others, glue-ins have much more longevity than expansion bolts. It seems that it would be prudent to spend some extra money to make sure that the most long lasting, "permanent" protection be used in order to preserve the rock as a resource. I've climbed in popular sandstone areas where some of the bolts are being replaced after just five years. That's a lot of holes. It's ugly and over the long haul a waste of money and resources.

Like I said I've not bolted anything so I could be way off with my assessment. If so please educate me.

Don't re bolt it.

You don't need the bolts anyway. There is a bomber brown tri-cam right by one of them and if you want pro for the rest, crawl to the back, look for other gear placements, or bring some big bros. Or just clip the bolts, they would probably hold a small fall.

or possible to do another route until you are ready...

IMO, i was not pleased with the bolt quality when i did the route years ago, but i also felt the same way about the rest of the route too.

What would desert climbing be like if we never came across star bolts and spinning hangers? I climbed this route about a month ago and the manky bolts adds a little spice and I kinda liked it. They were plenty solid for the desert. It is bad enough to see bolts on this climb and if you feel like you are going to fall at them just shove yourself into the squeeze and breath in and you will not move. It would make everyone feel warm and fuzzy to clip new bomber bolts but on a 5.9 squeeze I don't want to feel warm and fuzzy that is why it is called OW and squeeze chimneys. That being said a lot of inexperienced climbers do this route and common sense would say replace them so nobody gets too hurt. I am on the fence on this one but if new holes are added or if rock is scarred removing the bolts I am opposed.

I disagree that high traffic and lack of competence are good reasons to place bolts. Climbing has been and should continue to be a sport about independence and personal responsibility. I haven't heard about a lot of accidents on K-I. Even if there were I don't know why that would be an access issue. Can someone elaborate?

Main point: if there's gear placements available, then a bolt should not be there. Let it rip out. Hopefully the person who rips it brought their #4 along.