Rediculous OR article on Women climbers,

Currently, the front page of mountain project is linking to an article on the Outdoor Research website entitled: "You Ladies out here Climbing alone?"

About two paragraphs into the article, I began to have the same feelings I had as I watched this entire LA Clippers/Donald Sterling fiasco. Namely, "aren't we as a society past this shit yet?" Now, to be clear, Donald Sterling is a bigoted old man who doesn't earn any sympathy from me, and by no means do I intend to lump the article's author in with Sterling. Rather, I find her viewpoints more in line with the overblown reaction in the media to the situation.

We live in a world where everyone seeks to be politically correct to such a degree, that when someone else breaks this "social contract" it seems said we as a culture lack the maturity to respond without a knee jerk, hyperbolic overreaction.

What does this have to do with an article on women climbers?

This: when we're confronted with a violation of cultural norm, we fail to see how our own personal way of thinking can be an enabling factor to those we feel have behaved wrongly. If anyone really wanted to know about the character of Donald Sterling could have found numerous examples of his discriminatory views over time. However, until those views were blatantly put into our face with a recorded conversation, we as a society were perfectly content to ignore the character of Donald Sterling because we more or less didn't even know who he was. What I'm getting at here, is that the whole scandal with Mr. Sterling had nothing to do with him. He was simply behaving in the same bigoted way that he's always behaved, the only variable in this situation is the societal response that this singular circumstance elicited.

In the OR article, the author begins by relating the experience she and a group of her female friends had at Smith Rocks when some male climbers offered to leave their rope up for her. To the author, this seems to be some incredibly taboo insult to her proficiency as a climber due to her gender. When in fact, all that it represents is an inability on her part to see the situation outside the context of her own persecution complex. Did the other climbers ask if they wanted the rope left on the route because they disrespected women as independent climbers? Or because they were simply being courteous and offering someone nearby the chance to quickly hop on a cool route? We'll never know the answer to that, but the author didn't either. She simply perceived the gesture as an insult, and extrapolated far too much from it.

Later on, she says:

Then two years ago, I remembered just how much I enjoyed climbing with other women. Especially multi-pitch or alpine climbing. It forced me to be more prepared and required more leadership and true partnership. It made the climbing experience whole. And it surprised me how different the other climbers interacted with us when we were an all-woman team. It was as if they felt morally obligated to help us out else there would be a good chance of an epic or a rescue. “Be careful up there…it’s steep,” said one man on Mt. Stuart. Or “Are you two ladies out here by yourself? Maybe we should climb with you…for uh…safety in numbers,” said another man on Mt. Rainier. Or “You climbing as a party of three?” when they didn’t see a man in our climbing party. “No, just us ladies. We’ll manage,” is always my favorite reply.

Again, her story is less about the offers of advice from the other climbers than her own personal response to them. Maybe it's just me, but getting beta from and teaming up with, strangers in the mountains is one of my favorite aspects of climbing. I've had the EXACT same experiences countless times as a male climber, but didn't take anything from it because my perception of what they meant by their solicited or unsolicited advice wasn't previously informed by my own insecurities.

I give the author some credit for the following bit:

And there’s something about climbing with my guy friends that, even if they aren’t actually putting on the pressure to climb fast, climb hard, or get in a bunch of pitches, I’ve irrationally convinced myself that they won’t have the patience to let me work through my confidence issues to progress in my leading. I just never want to “hold them up.” Really, it probably has something to do with my own pride as a climber for over a decade where I fear exposing my weaknesses to other experienced climbers.

This one paragraph seems to show some cognition of the disparity between her own perception and reality, but it also more or less invalidates her other points.

If a group of male climbers with insecurities about their own ability were to encounter a group of confident female climbers, their responses would be identical to the author's, not because of gender, but because of their own insecurities.

Strong point. I'm genuinely looking forward to this thread.

The Blueprint Part Dank wrote:...in fact, all that it represents is an inability on her part to see the situation outside the context of her own persecution complex.

+1

ZacSt.J wrote:Strong point. I'm genuinely looking forward to this thread.

+1

Ridiculous Thread on OR Article

Tighten it up.

This is going to be awesome. To get everyone in the right frame of mind, first enjoy this video.

youtube.com/watch?v=_Vnwmpb…

As a strong woman climber I always have high hopes for these sorts of articles. I do think women fit into the climbing culture slightly differently than men, but I was really disappointed with this article. Maybe she's right and she has had lots of interactions with asshole men who believe that she cannot climb because she has ovaries. However, maybe she was getting advice and warnings because she looked inexperienced, not because she looked like a girl.

I think us girls need to stop complaining about how men treat us differently and focus on climbing harder, having more fun and gaining experience and knowledge.

Bluestone wrote: I think us girls need to stop complaining about how men treat us differently and focus on climbing harder, having more fun and gaining experience and knowledge.

Hell yes

I will admit I didn't make it through the whole article but from the bit I read it sounds like they were climbing at Smith dressed in green tutus and leggings?

If "hey do you want us to leave this rope up?" was the most misogynistic comment they heard all day I think we can safely chalk that up as a win for gender equality in the climbing community.

I'm relatively new to the climbing community, about a year now, and over the last year have read anything and everything I can about climbing and the climbing culture itself. This whole subject seems to always be coming up and it always seems to bother me. I think we're all a little 'lost in translation'. You see, some of the hardest climbing, most dedicated climbers I know personally are women. Anytime I meet a girl climber or group of girls out I always assume they can climb just as hard if not harder then I do. And so far most of them have been pretty cool, chill people. But anytime I read articles on this subject it makes me that much more uneasy about even talking to gals while I'm out climbing. Simply for the fact that I don't wanna come off as some bro deuschbag who thinks girls are incapable of climbing hard. Because of articles like these I have this weird complex that every female climber assumes because I'm a guy that I'm going automatically downgrade their abilities in my own head. Which makes me then think maybe I shouldn't even bother talking to them. But I like climbers and I like girls, and I love girl climbers. So why would I not want to talk to them? With that being stated I push past my fear of all of this simply for the act of interacting with other people who are obviously into the same cool stuff I'm into regardless of gender. Most of the time it turns out pretty good. Like that one time I got to follow my first 5.10d! Anywho, maybe we could all just stop letting all of our societal preconditioning get in the way and JUST CLIMB YO!!!

Found these to be pretty interesting while on the subject.

enormocast.com/episode-54-l…

enormocast.com/episode-12-g…

Well it's raining out so what the hell.
The author isn't complaining about the way men treat her in the mountains or at the crag, she's merely making a comment about it and making the statement that for her, it's different to climb with a group of women than a dude. That's a statement that I've heard from many a female climbers.
I've read plenty of other articles that do everything short of equating a males offer to leave a rope up on a climb to ending womens suffrage. While I agree that this article is not the best I've read, I don't think it deserves quite the response from the OP. That response is overblown and even making the slightest comparison to Sterling is F*** ridiculous.

mediocre wrote:The author isn't complaining about the way men treat her in the mountains or at the crag, she's merely making a comment about it and making the statement that for her, it's different to climb with a group of women than a dude.

I think the 5th sentence of the article disagrees with you pretty strongly.

"Boys. Sometimes they think that we women don’t know our way on the rock or in the mountains without them."

They were yelling "Fairies on the wall! Fairies on the wall!" wearing green homemade tutus and black or gold onesies underneath.

Have to agree with Ryan the other climbers (Male or female) showed impressive restraint in not giving them a harder ribbing.

The women climbers were yelling "fairies on the wall, fairies on the wall." How is that a complaint?

The fifth sentence is merely an introduction into her point that she's treated differently when no men are around. It's a supporting statement.She didn't say "I can't stand it when..." or "It makes me mad when..." I guess what I'm getting at is that I think the point of this article was that she enjoys climbing with women climbers rather than men are jerks. The OP is right in that we're all hyper-sensitive to being PC, but the article wasn't meant to start that debate.....again.

I usually mercilessly hit on female climbers until I get shot down and then write off the whole interaction as her being a lesbian.

That being said, I've found that nearly 100% of female climbers are lesbians.

mediocre wrote:The women climbers were yelling "fairies on the wall, fairies on the wall." How is that a complaint?

What?

Nevermind, I see what you're saying.
I still stand by the rest of my post.

mediocre wrote:The fifth sentence is merely an introduction into her point that she's treated differently when no men are around. It's a supporting statement.She didn't say "I can't stand it when..." or "It makes me mad when..." I guess what I'm getting at is that I think the point of this article was that she enjoys climbing with women climbers rather than men are jerks. The OP is right in that we're all hyper-sensitive to being PC, but the article wasn't meant to start that debate.....again.

All articles are meant to start a debate or support an agenda of self promotion. I'll leave it to you to decide which category this one falls in.

The myth of the inferiority of female climbers was dispatched a long time ago, probably by Lynn Hill, Catherine Destivelle or some other badass lady 20 years earlier. A lot of the recent threads/articles about the bane of the female climber in this misogynistic world have been tainted with a large dose of insecurity (insert statement about preferring to climb with girls who are less judgmental). You don't hear very many of the well known female crushers out there complaining that they're treated with condescension by male climbers. Maybe the behavior is more prevalent among average climbers and the elites are immune to it?

If the point of the article is simply for the author to state that "she enjoys climbing with women climbers", she doesn't have much to say.

For us tomboys, it’s a completely different experience to climb with only other women: We set goals for ourselves and the rest of the team helps each other achieve these goals. And we have fun in an X-chromosome sort of way.

I’ve irrationally convinced myself that they won’t have the patience to let me work through my confidence issues to progress in my leading. I just never want to “hold them up.” Really, it probably has something to do with my own pride as a climber for over a decade where I fear exposing my weaknesses to other experienced climbers.

So about five years ago, I started a local women’s climbing club. It was great! We got together about once every week in the summertime and each talked about our individual goals in climbing—some were new to leading and wanted to mock-lead or practice gear placements while others wanted to push their grade or speed or had a particular climb they wanted to be able to lead. Then, we headed to the crag and collectively helped one another achieve those goals. It was an environment where we felt safe exposing to other and overcoming our weaknesses as climbers.
We even had a Facebook group page before Facebook had group sites and all our guy friends were intrigued and jealous. But this club was all ours. The concept was really taking off and we all felt like we were making progress for ourselves rather than just trying to keep up.

Then two years ago, I remembered just how much I enjoyed climbing with other women. Especially multi-pitch or alpine climbing. It forced me to be more prepared and required more leadership and true partnership. It made the climbing experience whole. And it surprised me how different the other climbers interacted with us when we were an all-woman team. It was as if they felt morally obligated to help us out else there would be a good chance of an epic or a rescue. “Be careful up there…it’s steep,” said one man on Mt. Stuart. Or “Are you two ladies out here by yourself? Maybe we should climb with you…for uh…safety in numbers,” said another man on Mt. Rainier. Or “You climbing as a party of three?” when they didn’t see a man in our climbing party. “No, just us ladies. We’ll manage,” is always my favorite reply.
I realized how much I needed to start the ladies-only group up again. So last year, I did.

But this time, it needed to be more sustainable to work with busy schedules, so I’ve ended up organizing ladies’ trips at least twice a year and finding female climbing partners for my objectives whenever I can.
The Smith Chicks Rock Trip in March was a great success. Shelia led her first trad route outside (and just a month later swapped leads with me on Dark Shadows, a classic 5.8 at Red Rocks outside Las Vegas). Lynne led both trad and sport outside for the first time in a couple years. And Kjersti even led her first 5.12 outside! As for me, I got more practice leading trad routes at the start of the season and helped inch my lead head forward for another big, multi-month climbing trip with my husband. For once, I’ve started a climbing trip with him swinging leads!

Youre right, not much to say. This thread should have ended with the lesbian joke, and I know I'm guilty of dragging this on too.

Boissal wrote: You don't hear very many of the well known female crushers out there complaining that they're treated with condescension by male climbers.

I don't hear very many unknown average female climbers complaining about this (and I am one!) 99.9% of my interactions with other climbers are positive - with guys and other girls.

mediocre wrote:Youre right, not much to say.

Use quotes.

I can write a 2 page response devoid of any substance. Will you quote it as an example that I have something to say?

What if I write an article describing how I don't climb with women because I irrationally convinced myself of stuff but it has to do with my own pride and also my fear of exposing my weaknesses to others? You'll tell me to work on not sabotaging myself and building confidence instead of blabbering about my insecurities online.

The OP was spot on. And his comparison to Sterling wasn't that far fetched.

Paula C wrote:I don't hear very many unknown average female climbers complaining about this (and I am one!) 99.9% of my interactions with other climbers are positive - with guys and other girls.

Awesome.

There is no doubt in my mind that you can write a "2 page response devoid of any substance."

This isn't a research paper. You obviously recognize the quotes and realize you were wrong.

And yes, the comparison to Sterling is way out of whack. If you read my original statement, I agree that we are hypersensitive to being PC. However the Sterling situation is blatant racism which is a bit different than being PC.