Red Tagging Sport Routes

Is red tagging lame, acceptable, or somewhere in the middle?

Since the time effort and money have been put in by the equipper is it acceptable to request time to finish the project? If so how long is too long?

I don't know, but I think that if you put the thought, work, and money into bolting it, then you can hang a tag on it till the day you die. I think climbers are conscientious of whether or not a route is attainable (for them) and will pass the right on.

Ty Harlacker wrote:I don't know, but I think that if you put the thought, work, and money into bolting it, then you can hang a tag on it till the day you die. I think climbers are conscientious of whether or not a route is attainable (for them) and will pass the right on.

+1

Will Anglin wrote:Is red tagging lame, acceptable, or somewhere in the middle? Since the time effort and money have been put in by the equipper is it acceptable to request time to finish the project? If so how long is too long?

When I red tag routes it's usually because I haven't finished equipping it yet. But I leave the red tag on until I've redpointed the route. I would say it's still acceptable and should be respected.

17 years is the norm.

Really people. Get a grip. Tagging a piece of public land as if it is yours is a mere request. The land belongs to everyone and once you attach hardware to it, the hardware belongs to the public as well.

Red tagging is lame.

It is acceptable. It may or may not be respected though. I know multiple "red tagged" routes that someone besides the bolter got the FA on. Most of those people quietly move on though and let the bolter think they got the FA...

IMHO red tagging is retarded. Who cares if someone got the FA before you? The kind of people that are uber worried about FAs are the same people that speed to a stoplight to be there first. Plus if it is on public land it is fair game...

"a new route is a gift of time, money, and vision to the climbing community. we can show our appreciation by honoring the first ascent principle, and by respecting their efforts by staying off red-tagged projects. a red tag on the first bolt of a route indicates that the route has yet to receive a first ascent, and is someone's project. it makes no difference whether the route is 5.5 or 5.15. it means something to the person who put the time and resources into creating it, and he or she should have as much time as necessary to complete the process."

t. goss (2006) rock climbs of southwest utah & arizona strip

Edited:
If you put a red tag on a route just to keep people off your project, you are a giant douche. You should probably make it one of the first things you tell people when you meet them, so that they don't waste time talking to such a horribly dorky douchebag ball sucker.

If you climb a route with someone else's red tag on it, knowing it was placed there to guard the FA, then you're a douche the likes of which is rarely seen in the real world. You're truly a douche's douche, a go-getter douche, the kind of douche Godzilla would use if he for some reason grew a radioactive vagina and then wanted the only douche big enough to clean him out.

If you get the FA on a route only because you didn't allow anyone else to try it before you, then it is not an accomplishment. If you put a red tag on a route, you think a contrived FA will be something worth having. Douche.

If you find a red tag on a route you've never seen before, why would you take away some other douche's goal in life? You haven't climbed everything else available to you. If you just happened by it, you were going somewhere else to climb anyway. Move on, douche.

not necessarily my opinion, but this is an issue that seems to still be up for debate. englishdailaojeda.blogspot.…

It's when someone who bolts a face but hasn't managed to free climb it puts a tag or flag or something on the first bolt to let you know he hasn't been able to climb it yet, but is still trying and would like to be the first to climb it clean, so please don't climb on it until he either succeeds or gives up and removes the tag.

More precisely, it is a piece of red sling or cord tied off on usually the first or lowest bolt hanger; and what it really means is that you are advised to stay off this route. If it is left there simply b/c the bolter hasn't been able to send it, that's just cheesy. Unless it is the next hardest route in the world, there's always someone better than you who could probably float it. The one or two times I've left one is b/c I ran out of bolts or battery or there was still some trundling to be done and the route was unsafe.
Back in the day when there were tons of spectacular natural lines awaiting FA's, everyone had a shot and it was a race as to who had what it took to bag it; thus the FA was a truly notable achievement. But the key was that until sent, it was open to all. That's why I think the whole FA/sport route thing is just nonsense for 99% of the routes put up. Rather, a sport route's creator should be known for how well the route was done as a thing for others to enjoy. And that includes whether there is a pucker factor involved or not as there are many who seek that out.

What Mike said, except: It was more of a request on the part of the first ascender to others that S/he would like to get the first ascent. Since that person went to all the work to purchase and drill the bolts, clean the rock, most climbers left the route alone until the FA was done and the red tag removed. This red-tagging first began in Dresden, Germany in the late 70s. One year is generally considered long enough for that person to bag the FA.

jack roberts wrote:What Mike said, except: It was more of a request on the part of the first ascender to others that S/he would like to get the first ascent. Since that person went to all the work to purchase and drill the bolts, clean the rock, most climbers left the route alone until the FA was done and the red tag removed. This red-tagging first began in Dresden, Germany in the late 70s. One year is generally considered long enough for that person to bag the FA.

On a similar note, around the same time, in Frankenjura the practice was similar. Climbers would leave an open red circle at the base of the climb to indicate it was a project. Once climbed cleanly, the circle was filled in and there would be a solid red dot. Hense, the route was red-pointed, (rotpunkt) and and FA was created.

We should be aware of our history...so thanks for the posting about
rotpunkt...

In Southern Nevada this discussion of red tagging just becomes nonsense. I used to think I should put a tag on an unfinished (read not fully equipped) project. I've seen some obviously old pieces of red "TAT" hanging off unfinished projects....So old the bolts had "seep" stains around them. That behavior used to be respected ... I might ask around to see who's working on a line I am admiring. I'd not likely climb it. Lot of other routes out there....

Now I figure if you get on one of my projects and run out of clips you'll just bail. Oh well.

There have been some instances where a climber has equipped a route which they then can't lead... That behavior can lead to some controversy if anther person comes along and bags the ascent before the equipper does. Personal opinion here, but what were you doing installing hardware on something way beyond your ability? And if someone else bags the line why get your undies in a knot? Route is still there.

I've had a couple instances where someone climbed one of my bolted routes and claimed they did the first ascent. Hmmm... I used to be more sensitive or self absorbed... Now why care? If I decide to care I'll post the route on Mt. Project...When most climbers can climb harder than I can anyways, I'm not spending time and money doing it for fame or glory.

If you found an area with several freshly drilled and equipped routes with some red tags and you then went in and did a new line in that area without attempting to contact the developer, then you might qualify for the douche-bag label. Otherwise, just know that you might encounter some loose rock or fragile holds and exercise caution.
Course that could be anywhere you get off the beaten path...

Around here people steal the fixed gear off anchors. Why would they respect a red tag?

Anyone with a negative opinion about red-tagging has obviously never bolted a route before and doesn't know how much work and time and money is involved. A red tag, like Mike said, can also be a warning that the route is not ready. I have tagged routes simply b/c I needed to trundly something or add a bolt and ran out of daylight or battery. People put a tag up for different reasons, so just wait till its gone or its been a year...

How many of you have ever been denied climbing a route due to red tags being there?

In the grand scheme of things this does not happen very often.

The drama everyone is referring to (Nalle vs. Chris) is way overblown. If you're *that* good then you can find your own vision and bolt your own damn project. Despite what everyone thinks, there's no shortage of climbable rock on the planet.

If someone has the vision to see a line, spend time/money equipping it, then they should be given a *reasonable amount of time* to get the FA.

Eddie Brown wrote: The kind of people that are uber worried about FAs are the same people that speed to a stoplight to be there first.

+1

Brian Abram wrote:Edited: If you put a red tag on a route just to keep people off your project, you are a giant douche. You should probably make it one of the first things you tell people when you meet them, so that they don't waste time talking to such a horribly dorky douchebag ball sucker. If you climb a route with someone else's red tag on it, knowing it was placed there to guard the FA, then you're a douche the likes of which is rarely seen in the real world. You're truly a douche's douche, a go-getter douche, the kind of douche Godzilla would use if he for some reason grew a radioactive vagina and then wanted the only douche big enough to clean him out. If you get the FA on a route only because you didn't allow anyone else to try it before you, then it is not an accomplishment. If you put a red tag on a route, you think a contrived FA will be something worth having. Douche. If you find a red tag on a route you've never seen before, why would you take away some other douche's goal in life? You haven't climbed everything else available to you. If you just happened by it, you were going somewhere else to climb anyway. Move on, douche.

Although I dont neccessarily agree with your tactics and I cant say that I give a shit about sport climbing this was hands down the funniest post I have ever read on any website. ever. Well played sir, well played.

It's really just a respect thing.

So, whenever I happen to come across a bolted line with a red piece of webbing/tape/whatever on the first bolt, I am not supposed to climb the route because it's someone's precious first ascent project because they spent time, effort, and money? Or, do I not climb the route because it's being trundled and/or the battery died? Am I understanding this correctly?

Shane Z wrote:So, whenever I happen to come across a bolted line with a red piece of webbing/tape/whatever on the first bolt, I am not supposed to climb the route because it's someone's precious first ascent project because they spent time, effort, and money? Or, do I not climb the route because it's being trundled and/or the battery died? Am I understanding this correctly?

Yes and yes.