Randoms from a New Climber

I recently completed the Army's Mountain Warfare School where you learn some real basics about climbing, hauling systems, and some other cool stuff. Only way I climbed at it was on a top rope.... there's a whole other school for lead climbing. That said, me and three buddies, who all went to the school, are going to go out and do some climbing. One guy has a good amount of experience and the other row are newbies like me.

Why does it seem everyone despises/hates top roping?

At the end of a day of climbing, the routes I led are the ones that I vividly remember. Routes climbed on toprope don't have nearly the risk/reward in my opinion. I don't think many climbers look down on toproping though.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q…

In all seriousness though, what was said above is good input. I personally find the "sharp end" to be much more enjoyable and rewarding, albeit there are several climbs at the edge of my ability that I enjoy TRing, mostly due to them being unable to protect on lead.

There's only one reason to hate on top rope...

People who are able to overcome the psychological barrier of being confident on the sharp end of the rope are not always able to overcome the psychological barrier of needing to affirm themselves by displaying their superiority.

I would note that there are plenty of reasons to prefer leading over top roping. Very strong reasons, in my personal opinion. But surely preferring lead over TR isn't a reason to look down on people who TR. Right?

Ricardo Blanco wrote: Why does it seem everyone despises/hates top roping?

I don't like top ropers when they monopolize routes; climb in large noisy groups; inflict music and poorly trained dogs or children on others; litter, or behave unsafely.

I don't like it when non top ropers do the same things.
It just seems a lot more prevalent amongst the TR crowd.

I don't like top ropers when they monopolize routes

+1

Nothing at all wrong with top roping. It is usually the domain of less experienced climbers. We probably all started out top roping. I think the brow beating comes from some of the things people have mentioned in this thread... it isn't the top roping itself, but the fact that the people doing it might not be aware of crag etiquette, or proper technique. That said, there are plenty of obnoxious leaders out there "projecting".

Mark covered it. Ricardo, if you're envisioning ever needing to use these skills in the field, then toproping isn't going to help you much beyond teaching you basic movement and building some sport-specific strength. Unless you're following another climber, I doubt someone will leave a toprope set up in the middle of Afghanistan. Lead climbing (specifically, traditional) is most likely what you would end up doing based on my (admittedly limited) knowledge of tactical mountaineering.

I think part of the preference for leading also comes from the fact that lead climbing is much closer to what you would normally do outside. From a training perspective, it is really easy to lose your mental game if you aren't constantly leading, and when given the option (e.g in a gym where you can lead or TR a route at your preference), people will often choose the toprope over the possibility of a big lead fall, which is bad for your development in the long run.

Travis Vicary wrote: I don't like top ropers when they monopolize routes +1

I don't like lead climbers monopolizing routes - oh, right. It's called "projecting" now.

Marc801 wrote: I don't like lead climbers monopolizing routes - oh, right. It's called "projecting" now.

Don't know where you climb Marc, but the projectors around here seem to find a way to take turns and share. I wouldn't like it either if they didn't.

Ted Pinson wrote:From a training perspective, it is really easy to lose your mental game if you aren't constantly leading, and when given the option (e.g in a gym where you can lead or TR a route at your preference), people will often choose the toprope over the possibility of a big lead fall, which is bad for your development in the long run.

That is unless (like me) someone is concerned with ANY acceptable risk at the gym, potentially ruining time spent outdoors.

Shit does happen:

mountainproject.com/v/amput…

Ashima dropped by father at gym:

rockandice.com/climbing-new…

I knew someone who broke their arm bouldering at the gym, and was at The Edge a year or two ago when a strong female climber fell bouldering and hurt her arm (pretty bad).

While I feel the gym is generally safer than outdoors climbing, it is not risk-free. Any notion that it's risk free is an illusion. Note the waiver the gym keeps on file that everyone must sign before being allowed to climb.

I risk as little as possible at the gym, due to it being my least favorite form of climbing. Others will have their own preference and make different decisions regarding risk. It's important though, for sake of the OP being a newcomer to climbing, to have full knowledge of those risks so they can make as informed a decision as possible. That is the spirit of this post.

Mark E Dixon wrote: I don't like top ropers when they monopolize routes; climb in large noisy groups; inflict music and poorly trained dogs or children on others; litter, or behave unsafely. I don't like it when non top ropers do the same things. It just seems a lot more prevalent amongst the TR crowd.

And the reason top roping groups tend to be this way is they're inexperienced, often coming straight from the gym to the crag, and often with no interest in being outdoors. So they replicate the gym atmosphere, thinking this is how climbing is done everywhere (because, well, that's how all the climbing they've ever known is done).

Going back months to a prior post I made here, I think the gyms owe the climbing community a few minutes during the onboarding process to explain Leave No Trace and basic decency/etiquette rules that should apply indoors AND outdoors. Many climber's quickly move from gym to crag, so it doesn't seem a stretch that the gym has some degree of responsibility in this process. There may not be another time you'll have the climber as captive and open to hearing 'the rules' than before they start developing bad habits or form preconceived notions about how things are done.

Mark E Dixon wrote: Don't know where you climb Marc, but the projectors around here seem to find a way to take turns and share. I wouldn't like it either if they didn't.

Same here. There are also a lot of really good climbers in UT, so the people projecting are doing so on 12's and above, not 5.10's. I agree with your second sentence - my point was that it's incorrect to single out top ropers as route monopolizers.

I prefer climbing on TR. Always have. I lead because if I don't there will be lots of limits to what I can climb. But 99% of the time, I'm content to be the second.

Kevin Heckeler wrote: And the reason top roping groups tend to be this way is they're inexperienced, often coming straight from the gym to the crag, and often with no interest in being outdoors. So they replicate the gym atmosphere, thinking this is how climbing is done everywhere (because, well, that's how all the climbing they've ever known is done). Going back months to a prior post I made here, I think the gyms owe the climbing community a few minutes during the onboarding process to explain Leave No Trace and basic decency/etiquette rules that should apply indoors AND outdoors. Many climber's quickly move from gym to crag, so it doesn't seem a stretch that the gym has some degree of responsibility in this process. There may not be another time you'll have the climber as captive and open to hearing 'the rules' than before they start developing bad habits or form preconceived notions about how things are done.

I dont think this is fair. When I learned, there wasnt a gym close to where I lived. I didnt have the skill or experience when I was climbing without my mentor to lead things, but I did know how to set up an anchor on 2 bolts.

I spent a lot of time toproping, just to learn how to climb and build my skill and strength for climbing to get to a place where I was ready both physically and mentally to lead. When I learned to lead, I had to learn on gear. There were no bolted routes under 5.10 where I learned.

I think it just depends on where you go and where you learn and what your situation is.

The issue being pointed out is actually that big groups will exist, and that they are hard to deal with as a 2 person team. Dealing with them is not necessarily the same as dealing with top ropers.

Pete Spri wrote: I dont think this is fair. When I learned, there wasnt a gym close to where I lived. I didnt have the skill or experience when I was climbing without my mentor to lead things, but I did know how to set up an anchor on 2 bolts. I spent a lot of time toproping, just to learn how to climb and build my skill and strength for climbing to get to a place where I was ready both physically and mentally to lead. When I learned to lead, I had to learn on gear. There were no bolted routes under 5.10 where I learned. I think it just depends on where you go and where you learn and what your situation is. The issue being pointed out is actually that big groups will exist, and that they are hard to deal with as a 2 person team. Dealing with them is not necessarily the same as dealing with top ropers.

Most metro areas (even non-metropolitan areas like Albany) have one or more climbing gyms now. It's definitely fair. Actually, my post was perhaps too fair, as many of those fresh from the gym climbers are making serious mistakes leading outdoors as well. It's become such a problem a few gyms and organizations are actually having 'gym to crag' days as I described, trying to initiate gym climbers to climbing outdoors. I didn't make this shit up, it's been a problem for a few years now. It's finally (slowly) being addressed.

It's kind of insane how rare it is for gyms to teach cleaning anchors in their lead class, or even how to hang draws on a sport route since they're all permadraws.

Guess we'll see how it goes. I've never been to a climbing gym. Just learned what I learned at the school. My buddy used to do some climbing instructing back in the day so we should be good. Maybe he'll teach me some climbing etiquette, as I'm sure like golf there are plenty of things that I won't know about and will have to figure out. As with golf, I'll stick to my life motto of not being an asshole.... I grew up outside so none of the appreciation/respect/disrespect issues will be of any concern.

As far as top roping vs lead climbing, I went to a two week course, we climbed three days, I hated it the first day but figured out a little something on my last climb. Enjoyed it the second time, but still sucked, and started to really enjoy it and did a lot better third day. I'm not sure when one is 'ready' to lead climb, so we'll see how it goes.

Far as gear goes... my buddy's got a bunch of stuff. We have two static ropes and two dynamics, both 50M. I have a harness, helmet, 3 lockers, two non-lockers, a belay device, two pieces of tubular webbing that are sewn (forgot what they're called), two that aren't and one that's pretty long (we were using it as a firldbexpedient harness). All was army issued, and worked well when I was up there though I've never tried anything of better quality

Ricardo Blanco wrote:Guess we'll see how it goes. I've never been to a climbing gym. Just learned what I learned at the school. My buddy used to do some climbing instructing back in the day so we should be good. Maybe he'll teach me some climbing etiquette, as I'm sure like golf there are plenty of things that I won't know about and will have to figure out. As with golf, I'll stick to my life motto of not being an asshole.... I grew up outside so none of the appreciation/respect/disrespect issues will be of any concern. As far as top roping vs lead climbing, I went to a two week course, we climbed three days, I hated it the first day but figured out a little something on my last climb. Enjoyed it the second time, but still sucked, and started to really enjoy it and did a lot better third day. I'm not sure when one is 'ready' to lead climb, so we'll see how it goes. Far as gear goes... my buddy's got a bunch of stuff. We have two static ropes and two dynamics, both 50M. I have a harness, helmet, 3 lockers, two non-lockers, a belay device, two pieces of tubular webbing that are sewn (forgot what they're called), two that aren't and one that's pretty long (we were using it as a firldbexpedient harness). All was army issued, and worked well when I was up there though I've never tried anything of better quality

Many climbing areas are setup with the idea that climbers are using 60M ropes now. Just make sure you always (ALWAYS) put knots in the end of the rope when getting lowered and/or rappelling. A 50M will suffice most of the time, just be mindful of route length.

Also worth noting is that top roping areas are few in the northeast. Most crags are trad, with only a few true sport areas. You'll need to lead to get much long term enjoyment from climbing in the Northeast, and specifically you'll need to climb trad. If you need advice on top roping spots that could be a separate topic, and likely one that's already been discussed (you might be able to find something using the search tool).

It sounds like you have a head start in not being an asshole. :) If anyone gives you attitude because you don't climb as hard or in their style, that's on them. The goal is obviously to have fun, as long as you don't impede/infringe on the fun others are also having.

Seth Jones wrote: Because lots of climbers have a superiority complex.

ding ding ding, we have a winner!

It sounds like you have the right attitude. There is nothing negative about top roping. Share the space, be pleasant to be around, don't let your dog touch my stuff. Same rules as every public space.

I learned to climb from books, with my friends. It worked. Be overly cautious at first, be redundant with everything. Learn how to make the ideal anchor. As you progress, you'll learn where to cut corners safely.

Lead climbing is more fun for me, and most people. It will be for you too.