This route tackles the prominent overhung arete in the center of the cliff. It has sustained climbing on relatively positive holds to a final tricky arete. Unfortunately the holds were drilled, then filled in, and a broken hold was re-attached. This awaits a glue-free ascent. Superb, steep climbing.
Or maybe because it's an awesome route, with really good moves. Sure, it's got a bit of glue and some strange history but it's truly a fun route. I also think we all know it's probably not 13d/14a, and won't be viewed as such, but people are still climbing on it.
I heard a certain rumor that the above Peter Beal, wanted to knock off the glued holds and try to climb it like that. I think this is bullshit, and I was wondering what other people thought of this? The damage to the rock has already been done, don't make it worse. Peter if you want to do the route without the glued holds then do it, but don't bust them off.
Regarding the rumor of my wanting to remove the holds, yes I would like to see them go. This doesn't mean I will be the one to do it but I would not object if someone does. With a few hours of work, I believe all the glue could be removed, except for the hacked out pockets, leaving a relatively pristine climb. I believe my initial response to the chipping of this route, which was to reattach one hold and reinforce another on this climb, was mistaken. i recognize the climb is popular in its current state but I regard it as still an aid climb. There are sufficient holds for a much better and more difficult version. Sooner or later the epoxy will fail anyway.
AC (or "CU Team"- same difference since you didn't sign), Since you are soliciting opinions about knocking off a glued hold- here is mine.
If it is re-enforced, I am neutral on it. Refer to my comments on "Empire Of the Fenceless." I'd be bummed to see glue on the wall at all, but I guess I can see both points of view. Understand that if we keep allowing chipping and glueing to stay, it will keep happening, for sure. Remember, the chip and glue is the first blood. Everything else is just a reaction.
If the hold is non-native and ADDED, I think Peter is absolutely in the right and if I found it, I'd do it myself. I don't flash 5.13c though, and I don't 'project' routes, so the odds of me getting on this route are low.
Since public thoughts were solicited, here is one more. Post YOUR name, not CU climbing team. You thoughts are prefaced with the article "I" and not "we" so I think you should express who "You" are as opposed to give an opinion for others.
First off, I second the "post under your name, not the "CU Climbing team".
Second, your logic escapes me. " It's just as f... up to knock off a reinforced hold as it is to glue the hold in the first place." I might as well say "It's just as fucked up to rescue a person as it is to push them in the river" I guess the easy way to respond to such a statement is "No, it's not."
Third, watch the potty mouth, especially when you post as the "CU climbing team". I'm a student at CU and don't want to have such foul behavior associated with me. I'd assume the university has guidelines for the behavior of clubs and it's members.
In regards to the original question: get rid of that stupid hold! It doesn't matter if I climb 5.6 or 5.13, I have as much right to oppose the destruction of property as the next "dude".
Would the "CU Climbing Team" please identify themselves? I'm not sure I understand what the problem is here. If the glue is removed, which the "CU Climbing Team" thinks is f***ed up, then that's as f****ed up as if it stays? How did you all get into CU?
Joe Varela, Zach Wood, Mike Patz, Chris Rosin, Garret Morrisson, Alex Smith, Bryce Gartner and Sheriden all compose the CU climbing team. The team thinks that breaking off a reinforced hold is somewhat like chipping a hold and is in no way analagous to saving a person from the water. Tony since you are too good for working routes why don't you go over to primevil and chip enough holds so that you can flash it and then give your opinion on how the holds should be treated, Unless you believe that every reinforced hold everywere should be nocked off. We all know that this would cause more damage to the rock and make it even less natural.
CU climbing team quote of the week. "Be patriotic to your Vodka"-Joe Varela, President, copyright 2003.
Wow, Anon Coward- So now you give me one of 8 people who may have written this. I'd like to know SPECIFICALLY who so that I'm not guessing at which of the 8 of you is so poorly socialized. Your opinion you are entitled to, but insulting people for no reason in a public forum without signing your name is pretty weak. I'd also take seriously David's point regarding internet behavior and the use of CU's name. If someone draws a personal vendetta, you could be suspended from school for using their name in a broadcast public forum. That's not a threat from me, but some people play dirty.
When did I say that reinforced holds should be knocked off? And when did I say I was "too good" to work routes? I said that if the hold was [re-inforced], that I could see both points of view and also that I wasn't *good enough* to climb it. This is the weakest sort of [argument] I know of. If you have to change what I say just to debate my points, it just proves that you don't have a valid stance or counter-point at all. You sure are not the CU debate team.
So you ASK for opinions, then attack everyone who gives one? What's up with that? Real cool, 'dude.' I was the same way when I was your age, and I have some advice for you. Don't give yourself a rep. 10 years after I did a lot of stupid flaming like that I still haven't been able to completely shake the reputation.
To echo Tony's point: your argument makes no sense. Perhaps you may need to repeat that semester of English composition.
Let me guess what your hidden agenda is. You and your buds have a shot at redpointing this glued and chipped 5.13+ route which common consensus seems to rate at 13b/c. With the removed glue-on foothold and reinforced hold, it seems the route might be significantly harder... possibly too hard? Don't expect much empathy in this forum. As soon as you enter the ethically questionable realm of route modification, any argument to justify preserving those modifications comes across as pretty weak.
Hey... just curious since I don't have any experience with glue (don't believe in it).What is involved with removing glue from a rock? Does it just have to be chipped off, or is there a solvent that can be used to disolve it?
#1- drilled pockets and glued on holds? Why isn't this route blacklisted?
#2- If anyone is considering using any solvent on the wall, please consider the potential rock damage. Soak a local "pebble" in it first from the ground and check the result. You need something that won't etch Silica, Alumina, etc, plus won't affect the various minerals and "bleach" the rock. Most of the obvious solvents that come to mind are probably NOT good for your health, And the acids will probably leave bleached spots. Also, I know this sounds obvious, but if you do this, please wear goggles and watch your gear carefully.
The CU climbing team seems to have a difficult time making any kind of coherent point here. However, I will jump in and try to say what they should be saying.
There are a good many popular routes in the area that have seen some sort of route modification, from the blatant (sport park style) to the subtle (reinforcing a flexing hold with epoxy).Once the route is established in this style, and begins to see ascents, people get emotionally attached to the line.Maybe it is your big project, or maybe it is your hardest redpoint, or maybe it just has moves that appeal to you. Whatever the case, some people will not want the route to be modified from whatever its current state is.
So the likely scenario at a route like this is as follows: a guy chips off a reinforced hold, and other guys get mad. They glue another similar chip in its place, or drill a pocket to replace it. Then the first guy starts filling pockets and chiseling things off and before long, the route becomes a bit like a gym route - holds coming and going. In the long term, it will just begin a cycle of rock destruction.
Chipping is always wrong. But if a route is established in this style and sees lots of ascents, it requires very careful consideration before doing any further rock modification. If you don't believe me, head out to Rifle during September with some cement and a chisel - you could "fix" classic hard routes like Vision Thing, and Zulu, and Apocalypse '91.Will the climbing community appreciate your efforts, or will you get the crap beat out of you?We should in all cases avoid actions that will lead to further damage to the stone.
As an apparent member of the CU climbing team (assuming, of course, that I'm synonymous with Chris Rosin), I'd like to illuminate the novelty of my 'inclusion' in this discussion: For starters, my membership status with the team in question is probably best described as guest, as I have yet to attend a meeting, submit dues, or pledge allegiance to the CUCT ideals...Though I was largely unaware of this [Clear Creek] debacle, I recently read the posts and deemed my unsolicited opinion necessary. Whereas I acknowledge the arguments of both the team and the myriad of individuals compelled to respond, it has always seemed fundamental to remain [uninvolved] in issues I know nothing about. As a recent addition to the Boulder community, I know very little about Coloradan ethics outside the heavily publicized 'bolt wars' the canyon entertains. Personally, I have yet to finalize my opinions on drilling/gluing/chipping in the vertical world. I can think of examples of such activity that I respect (such as La Rose et Le Vampire in Boux) as well as examples I question (such as Express Yourself in [Clear Creek]). I sympathize with the CUCT's frustration at retro-manufacture, as I, too, think removing the debated hold would prove fairly unnecessary. However, and perhaps most importantly, I can appreciate that no action has taken place, warranting this debate little merit in my humble opinion. I sincerely wish you all the best in resolving your concerns, and look forward to seeing you on the rock. Chris
This route is now listed as "modified" and is on the "blacklist"
Chris, I thought your writing was just fine. So, what do you think about a "climbing team" using your name to express opinions that you had no say in. You haven't even been to a club meeting yet.
None of us have heard of this climbing team or club before. What a way to introduce yourself to the community. Why don't you come out with a positive note and you might get more positive interest in your group?
What kind of goofball AC comment was that? Chris offends your sense of composition in an internet post, huh? I don't think most people are really after composition scores in internet posts. Although I don't see the difference between the routes he listed, at least he attempted to make a point and express an opinion. I congratulate him for his posting his name and other social graces.
AC, what is your logic? If I follow it correctly, it is: "Why make a point at all when you can use perfect grammar to flame someone senselessly?" Is that really more important, valid, or impressive? It's not important to me, and if that was important to you, why did you misspell 'recommend?' I misspell a lot because I don't care about any more than the message (the POINT) - you seem to have the reverse priority though, which apparently makes you a hypocrite.
AC, you have a lot of life ahead of you. I'd recommend reading Miss Manners and taking a 4th grade spelling class. While you are at it, report back to Kindergarten and learn how to write your name. (I'll probably be in the spelling class with you, but I already know how to write my name.)
CU climbing team, right on!I like that quote of the week about the Vodka!Right-on, bros, we need to paaaarr-tttyyyy! I likethat you guys stick together ("the team thinks..."),too. Reminds me of the fraternities back in college. I wasn't cool enough to be in one then, but I think I am now.
So yeah, I went to college back east and it's been afew years (OK, about 10!), but I want to go back again! I want a degree in writing - seems cool, I'm a good typer, and I've already been published here(obviously!) and on the supertopo.com forum (plus, a couple others that I shouldn't mention!), so I've gota great head-start! And being an athlete equals chicks, so get me on the team!!
If you've met me it might be hard to believe, I know, but I never had much luck with the lady-folk. Where I went to school, football was *huge* (go State!), and all the football players always had all the chicks flopping all over them. I thought that was pretty cool. And out here in Colorado, I figure climbing is like football is back east, so you guys must score tons. Man, being on the CU climbing team must be the ticket! You have cheerleaders? And if I redshirt my first year, then I'd have five years worth or paaaarrrrtyyyyyy - ing!!! And pulling, of course!!
Can I just walk-on for my first year? Tuition must be expensive, so I'm thinking of moving back in with my folks to save some money. I know it might seem lame since I'm 34 years old, but hey! They have a spareroom in the basement, and I bet I could get my old paper route back to make some coin. After my firstyear, I'm thinkin' of trying out for a scholarship. Are most of you guys on scholarship? I've heard that being a student-athlete is demanding - especially with climbing, since you must travel lots, and places like Yosemite, Alaska, Patagonia, and Chamonix aren't exactly short trips!! Duh!
I'm pretty new to climbing, but I'm catching on fast. In college I spent most of my time playing Doom in my dorm room, but I was on the JV wrestling team in High School, and I did play some IMs in college - so I'm a pretty good athlete. I on-sighted a four-dot on the Fown-townblew boulder at The Spot on my fourth try the other night. Like I said, I'm catching on fast. Hate to brag, but I'm pretty good.
Does the team wear uniforms? I like uniforms. I still have my high school wrestling singlet, so that helps. And you guys must rip it up on the big stuff aroundhere in the summer (winter, too, probably). I saw a picture of The Diamond and really want to climb it. Doesn't look too hard - maybe good cross-training todo with the team in the summer? And Chief's Head -looks kinda big and pretty, but the guidebook says the routes are only like 5.10 and 5.11. Maybe a little boring since they're easy, but what are ya gonna do, know what I'm sayin'? There's *no way* it's anywhere near as hard as that four-dot I just did, so we should go climb Chief's Head just for kicks.
OK, back on track. Even though I'm not enrolled yet, I wanna get a head start. When and where do you practice? I'll be there!
So, Brent, just what do you call chipping? It is the 14 points of your crampons scraping across the rock? Or Maybe those super-duper ice tools that wrap, tap and chisel the rock on those "bolted W10 in the Park and up in Vail". Oh, don't forget those little harmless batholes that do absolutely no "harm" to the rock! Isn't Matt a known chipper, and hasn't he climbed numerous chipped routes in Rifle during his hey-day as a sport-climber? Oh, I am just kidding. With a little more slander, this tread could be some fun. Peace, Dude
So, in great deference to my bathooking days, I have imbibed a bit of the cobra...with the venom running in my veins I have this to say....
I think that if you want to generalize (which I feel is valid) dry tooling and chipping, it is only really my front point that does the chipping (thanks Mr. Broskovik (sp?) for bringing this to light).
Bat hooks suck and are really no different than 1/2 inch bolts. Are they different than a chipped hold? Shackboy and I can't seem to reach a verdict on said topic.
He is now telling me how gay I am for aid climbing at all.
That being said, any climbing team or organized form of our anarchist pursuit is in direct opposition to the things htat I enjoy about our ambigous endeavor.
Slag me more...I am like the gimp in Pulp Fiction, your just waking me up.B
(Mike Patz) I'm not writing this with the whole team, but I would like to point out that many people have commented on the team, as if we had supported chipping. In no way did we ever support chipping holds. We said that knocking off glued holds, in some cases, is just as bad as chipping. I would also like to note that although we do not yet have cheerleaders, the CU climibing team now has 5 official belay girls, and some of which will soon become part of the team, although I don't kow why anoyone out there is reading this or cares, but if you do, then that is the latest on the team. Other news on the team; we have been training outside, so that we can send the brown problem at The Spot. Zach just did a one arm, and Sheriden would have sent the brown problem except that he climbed outside that day so his shoes got dirty and he was used to outside which is so "unsteep". He will now focus solely on plastic, so he can send the brown problem.
This is all sort of a waste of time, but, similar to a car wreck, fun to watch. Regardless, I wish the CU climbing team would come to me for editing before posting their stance. Mike, I know microbiology is far removed from creative writing, so let me correct the spelling, and then you can tell me how a little amoeba knocks boots. Let's go climbing. Pat
Well, I think chiping sucks in all its forms, but, having lived in bend and seen the amount of glue reinforcing, I have to say that this is standard on all hard routes. Drilling pockets is bullshit, but the reinforcing of holds already there is ok. As for aid climbing, Brent rips it up so all you slack a... sport climbers can go climb a tasty little 30 foot 5.13, and we can go where you never will..
Hey Mike B.! Why don't you keep the comments about sport climbers to yourself. Do you really want to start a rant about aid climbers vs. sport climbers? I am pretty sure that if I can climb a 5.13, then I can probably follow you up any wall of your choice. I may need to learn some aid techniques, but, in general, I don't think I would have a problem stepping in slings, and pulling off of gear. I don't need to be an aid climber to get on big walls (ie. diamond.) Pretty bold statement you make there...slow down champion.
A warning to anyone trying this route. The next to last bolt, which protects the final part of the route, is not safe. The threads on the stud have stripped and the hanger is well out from the rock. A fall off the top could result in the rest of the stud getting stripped and the hanger sliding off. I can't replace this bolt since I'm going out of town for a while. If it's not fixed by my return, I will replace it.
By Alek Tkach Jan 26, 2005 rating: 5.13d8b31XE8 7a
Ya ya ya, I saw all the comments about the glue and such, but I just thought everyone should know the bottom glued hold has broken. Don't know when, don't know who, but it is a lot smaller. I personally find it much better as there is only a two finger full pad making it all much harder. The thing is stellar now. I didn't see the hold on the ground, but I would beg that it be left off, if found.
Yes, the glued hold has been broken, I'm guessing that some punk broke it on purpose, because it broke in half down the middle which was the thickest part. Also, there is no sign of the broken hold on the ground (I looked all over and yes, I would have put it back on). To whom ever did it, all I can say is I wish I would have caught you.
Jim, Yeah I'm still trying it, I think with some work I can still pull all of the moves, its just that fouth clip is so stinking hard now. Did Kinder clip it from low on one of the crimps, or did he use the remaining piece of the glued on hold to clip?
The movie beta is still accurate as far as I know. The current breakdown is 5.11 slab to a V9/10 boulder problem, an OK shake, then a V8 boulder problem. Probably 40 feet long in all. The hold that needs to be removed is the right-hand gaston that JC uses to slap for the midway shelf.
Checked out (hung-dogged) the line for the 1st time yesterday. It seemed cool and the glue is...well whatever...the line is what it it is. Sprinkle the ashes and accept it for what it currently is. If the glued holds were removed by accident or on purpose I wouldn't really care, because if I can't send someone else will and that is the best part of climbing.
I don't climb in the 13+/14 land very much but I do hit the 13a's-13b/c bizz fairly often and more so as of late, and I felt this rig was a good 13d or a least really hard 13c/d. The long middle toss move from the tinny (L) pinch and the (R)-GLUED gaston to the middle shelf with the small hidden crimp was a supper hard move that probably deserves 13d or (V9-10). Maybe I'm not using the best solution for this move but it seemed like a stiff section to me.
It's a proud line that climbs up a cool chunk of stone. I would think that glue or no glue everyone that climbs in the 13+ land could find this line entertaining and challenging.
I thought it was a cool line but I'm not sure it's going to be my fall project. I think I will go with "Shine." None-the-less, a quality line that I hope many generations will appreciate and enjoy. Glue or no glue.
I finished replacing all the bad hardware on this route this afternoon. I swapped out all the draws, put new quicklinks with carabiners on the anchor, and replaced bolt 7 today with a 3 1/2" Stainless Power-bolt.
This was the bolt above the slopey ledge, and while trying to pry loose the nut on the old wedge bolt, it snapped at the base of the wedge inside. Didn't take much force to break it either. Pretty rusted out, and as Peter mentioned the threads were stripped as well.
After re-reading the comments on this route and watching the video of Jon on primetime, I've realized that Peter Beal suggested replacing that bolt in May of 2004, and the draws I replaced are the same ones Jon was clipping back in summer of 2008! This is rather surprising and alarming that old shitty hardware and draws can stick around for this long without anyone replacing anything and continuing to climb and fall on this gear.