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Posting routes you haven't climbed

Original Post
Monomaniac · · Morrison, CO · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 17,295

It seems like folks posting routes they haven't attempted and/or sent is a pervasive problem. I think its universally annoying and unhelpful, except for the person who posts the route they haven;t done. I would like to propose a potential solution.

What if we added a step or set of check boxes in the route-posting process that forced the poster to choose either:

"I have attempted and/or sent this route"

or

"I have not attempted or sent this route"

The final route would then display something like,

"submmitted by Monomaniac, who has not attempted or sent this route"

or

"submmitted by Monomaniac, who has attempted or sent this route"

That way, at least we would know if were getting a regurgitated guidebook description. I realize sometimes a description by someone who has not climbed a route is better than nothing. For example, if you belayed someone on the route, or talked to someone who has done it, etc.

Finally, an even better additional feature, IMO, would be to have the ability to replace an existing route if the original poster checked the "I have not attempted..." box. This could be done by adding a "replace" button to any description that was checked by the original submitter as "I have not attempted..."

This feature would be more controversial and may cause some problems. But one mitigation might be to force an administrator to review the two competing descriptions before teh original post is replaced, or something like that.

Anyway, I think doing both would allow a yahoo with no soul to post routes they haven't done, while also allowing the community access to the best possible route descriptions, in the event an MP.com user eventually does climb a route that was previously posted by aforementioned yahoo.

As an afterthought, the first part might also be useful when posting comments to route descriptions. This way if someone posts "BTW, you need to carry a #5 Camalot on the 4 hour approach..." you would know if you were getting first or second-hand information.

Ladd Raine · · Plymouth, NH · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 5,505

You can just look to see if the user that posted the route ticked the route. The feature you are asking for already exists as the tick. Unfortunately, too many users don't use the tick feature, so we are left with the problem you have stated. I don't know how to get users to actually use the tick feature, I wish they did though.

I personally do post routes occasionally that I haven't even touched because they are either the classic of the area, way harder than I can climb, or I just feel like they should be known about.

John J. Glime · · Cottonwood Heights, UT · Joined Aug 2002 · Points: 1,160

Why would you post a route that you don't have first hand experience with? The tick option is an ego trip, who cares? It's simple, don't post anything you haven't climbed. You can't give a true picture and understanding for the rest of us if you are just copying something off of a guidebook... let alone the ethical considerations involved. You sharing your reality of the climb with the rest of us is what makes this website. Personal contact with routes. To do otherwise diminishes the site. (IMO)

BenCooper · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Apr 2007 · Points: 585

I sympathize with both arguments here, but...
I do believe that some climbing areas that have little to no beta on this website need more routes (see Pacific Northwest climbing areas, Squamish, etc.). This doesn't mean that you should post a climb you have no knowledge of. But posting a climb you've seen, or are generally familiar with is perfectly okay. That's the point of the website: to get info on climbs out to other climbers. Even a description of the location of a route helps. Using a guidebook's beta can be very helpful for route descriptions, pro, how long, etc. Again, using a guidebook with some personal knowledge of a route shouldn't be a problem. Just my thoughts...

also, using the tick feature is great and all, but trying to remember back to all the routes from years past and ticking every last one of them is time-consuming and tedious. if you post a new route though, using the feature is both helpful and easy.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

Personal experience, I thought, was supposed to be the basis for submittal on helpful beta & route description.

Though, there is importance of providing info outside of personal experience, like historical FA stuff & their intended route. Most the time I find this in a publication somewhere like a guidebook, or AAC Library. If those sources are wrong or biased, well, I did the best I could.

saxfiend · · Decatur, GA · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 4,221
Ladd Raine wrote:You can just look to see if the user that posted the route ticked te route.
Not necessarily. I frequently post routes that I've seconded or climbed on toprope, but I don't use the tick feature unless I've actually led the route.

I can understand your rationale for adding routes you haven't climbed because they're classics, etc. But my personal preference is that routes shouldn't be added unless the person has had first-hand experience with the route. The routes database on rc.com has become increasingly unreliable due to the proliferation of junk routes, and I'd hate to see the same thing happen on Mountain Project.

JL
George Bell · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 5,050

I always assume (perhaps naively) that the person who adds a route has climbed it. That seems to be the whole point of this site. It used to be that when adding a new route, you had to list the date of your ascent, but this input box was removed some time ago (and probably could be left blank anyway). Of course there is always a hazy line, for example on multi-pitch climbs where nobody does the top part any more (i.e. Supercrack), or on boulder or sport routes done in poor style, or even aid lines where you just jugged up.

I don't enter hardly any of my ascents in my tick list, I feel this should be a personal preference.

If some user is entering a lot of routes they have not climbed, perhaps a polite email from the administrator of that area would be a good way to start?

David Sampson · · Tempe AZ, · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 1,207

Wow, leave your PC for a few minutes and one's post is nearly obsolete!! I agree with most of those posted previously. This site is for sharing useful information with the climbing community from personal experience. I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that this web site was established under this philosophy.

I like the site, and I contribute to it, because of this. I think it is simple. DO NOT add routes that you have NOT climbed.

I understand the desire to add classic routes even if you have not climbed them. But, this site has a personal touch because of the honest exchange of information that we all provide. Let us keep it that way. My two cents.

Monomaniac · · Morrison, CO · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 17,295

Wow, thanks for all the interest in this topic.

I think pretty much everyone agrees you shouldn't post routes you have not been on. I don't think we need to debate that anymore.

The point is, even though we *all* agree, many people post routes they haven't done anyway. To my knowledge, there doesn't seem to be anyway to STOP people from doing this. So I have proposed what I like to call a "compromise" that allows selfish idiots to post routes they have not done, but also makes everyone else aware that the route was added by someone with no personal experience. And my proposal went a step further, suggesting a means to delete Selfish Idiot's worthless description in favor of a good description based on first hand experience. Currently there is no way to do this. If Selfish Idiot posts a description for "World'd Most Classic Route", even though he hasn;t done it, we are all stuck with this route description for eternity. The only other option is to post lots of comments that correct the crappy description.

Further, I don;t use the "tick" feature because I am somewhat ashamed of my massive ego, and I don't want my egomania to be any more obvious to others than it already is. That is why I phrased the statements the way I did ("I have attempted and/or sent..."). I believe people will appreciate this vagueness. But if not, we could always split it into three options, one for attempted, one for sent, one for neither.

I'm curious if anyone else thinks making these changes to the website would be "good" or "bad".

Monomaniac · · Morrison, CO · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 17,295

In response to Obewon, I also come from an under-represented area, and I can empathize with the desire to fill-in some of the more deserted areas. I think this is a common condition, especially as it relates to "classic" routes in less-documented areas.

This is why I proposed the "replace" feature. Folks could post routes they haven;t done in obscure areas. These posts could serve as a 'placeholder' until someone comes along that has done the route. This person would then have the power to replace the 'placeholder' with his/her first-hand account.

Am I crazy? Does anyone else think this would be a good feature?

John McNamee · · Littleton, CO · Joined Jul 2002 · Points: 1,690

One of mp.com's strengths is the sharing of experiences "gained from" climbing the route and being in the area. The local ethics and customs are very important. Without this life experience the site is just another empty list of names and numbers. Lets make sure mp.com doesn't head down this road.

Avery N · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 650

monomaniac,

Yeah, most all agree that people posting routes they haven't climbed should be tarred and feathered (once for each offense, of course). We also generally agree people shouldn't act like 2-year olds, but that still seems to happen. The age-old challenge of the internet.

Unfortunately, I think having a 'guideline' when one clicks to add a route of: 'Guideline X: Post only routes you have personally climbed in entirety' is about as good as it gets. Even if you add the checkbox, what's to say someone doesn't just say they climbed it when they didn't? So, I'm not sure it buys the site a whole lot more, but I think the intent is spot-on.

Just my $0.02

Cheers,
Avery

George Bell · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 5,050
Monomaniac wrote:The point is, even though we *all* agree, many people post routes they haven't done anyway.
I browse perhaps 1% of the 23,000 climb database, but I assumed adding routes not climbed was a rather rare event. In poking around just now I could not find an example, but I don't know where to look.

If new users are not clear they should not add climbs they have not done, this should be emphasized more as part of the site philosophy. Certainly in the "add route" form. I don't know if we need a special check box, but it wouldn't hurt.
Sam Lightner, Jr. · · Lander, WY · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 2,732

I agree this is a problem. I'm guessing the reason people fill in routes they havn'et climbed is so they can go up in the silly points rank. I'm guessing that the points rank thing gives you credit for this so that the web site has more info being fed into it... but it defeats the purpose most of use the site for... or at least most of us that really go climbing.
If you havne't climbed a route you shouldn't post it. THere should be no reward for posting a route that you have not climbed. I understand the administrators want to get as many routes on here as possible, but again, just copying the info out of a guidebook defeats why many of us use the site. We want up-to-date info from people who have recently been there. Old info is often wrong, and in certain areas the guidebook info is often wrong.
It would be nice if you guys changed this even though it might mean loosing "every route cataloged". If not, I'll probably quit trusting it as a resource.

Ladd Raine · · Plymouth, NH · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 5,505

Clearly I was mistaken when I posted routes that I had not climbed. I will cease my posting of these routes.

My intention in posting these routes was not malicious, or based upon ego-inflation. It was benevolent in intention and I collected as much additional information on the route that I could. I do not plan on deleting these routes (maybe 5-10 individual routes). I will however monitor the comments these routes receive and incorporate them into my descriptions.

Please accept my apology, as I am very new to mp.com

-Ladd

Monomaniac · · Morrison, CO · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 17,295

Avery,

I agree, we have to trust people to tell the truth. However, I think climbing is unique in that way. Nobody ever asks for proof if you claim an ascent. I think you might be surprised, if given the option, I think 99.9% of MP.com users will be honest. Its one thing to post a route you haven't done when the 'rules' are vague and ill-defined. Its another thing to flat-out lie about climbing a route.

Does MP.com even have an official policy on this matter? If so, why not delete routes that are obviously posted by folks who haven't climbed them? Why not sanction repeat offenders? If the answer is that it takes too much time, I would gladly volunteer for this duty.

Even site administrators occasionally violate this basic principle of MP.com. Just saying "you shouldn't do this" is obviously not working! That is why I have proposed a new approach.

Ladd Raine · · Plymouth, NH · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 5,505

Here is an example of oe of my descriptions of a climb that I have not personally climbed.

HERE

This is another one, I included it because it is in the newest guidebook, but since a hold broke and I felt it deserved mentioning.

HERE

Here is my post of The Fly, I feel that it is complete, yet clearly I cannot and will never be able to climb 5.14d. It is the hardest climb at Rumney, and I felt it would be worth a mention.

HERE

These routes I feel are OK for me to have posted, however, I will delete them if asked directly.

Monomaniac · · Morrison, CO · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 17,295

George,

I could direct you to many examples, but I don't want to be a d!ck. The purpose of this thread, in my view, is not to call people out. The purpose is to propose a solution to a problem that I find extremely annoying.

Anyway, if you want a hint, check out many of the harder routes in the Smith Rock section. I think these were posted by well-intentioned folks who felt that it would take years for someone to come along who had sent these 'lofty' routes. But the end result is a bunch of worthless descriptions etched in e-stone.

susan peplow · · Joshua Tree · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 2,756

Hi gang,

I too couldn't agree more about people posting route info without actually doing them. I suppose there are exceptions to the rule but for the most part, if you're posting them you should have climbed them! Providing that the info posted is correct it doesn't much matter to me if they were climbed on TR, lead, red-point, pink-point, head point or otherwise.

My personal gripe..... people adding new areas and/or routes with TBD listed under the descriptions. This is a huge EGO trip and BS as the only reasons to do that is so they can gain point rankings on MP or secure that they are the ones putting the info in. If you've got the info to put in, then let's have it. Otherwise, don't tie up the area/routes while we wait for a convenient time for you to put it in.

In addition, when info is incorrect for one reason or another the easiest way to have it modified is to contact the poster first then the administrator second. Sometimes it's simple stuff in the description that may have been correct in 2002 but no longer applies in 2007. Even if the person who posted the info is still on MP they may not know there is a modification needed. I think everyone here wants the most accurate information posted and would be happy to modify text if needed.

As for using the tick list. Yeah I use it, mostly because it's a single point to list routes done. For instance, I've got 4 count them 4 copies of the J-Tree guide, plus supplemental guides like select, Bartlett guides and the 60 favorites. Marking each copy would take me forever. For me, keeping a single record on MP is easy. I usually make notes such as who was with me and if I didn't lead the route.

Anyhoo, MP is a great site and like the design and process of adding new areas.

~Susan

Monomaniac · · Morrison, CO · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 17,295

Ladd,

I appreciate your honesty. I think this bugs me more than most people because its more common in the harder grades, and I'm most psyched about posting harder routes. Again, I think people who do this, such as yourself, are well-intentioned. You're probably thinking, and are probably correct, that no one who has climbed The Fly (4 people?) is ever gonna post a route description on this site. But if Dave Graham, or Chris Sharma, or Tony Lamiche (sp?) got really psyched on posting to MP.com, wouldn;t you rather read what they had to say about the route? I certainly would, but I don't necessarily think its a terrible thing to have a 'temporary' description in place until that happens, as long as there is a process for replacing the interim description.

M

Ladd Raine · · Plymouth, NH · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 5,505

Mono,
I just finished placing a disclaimer on my posts where I haven't climbed the climb...

Here it is,

I have not ever been on this route, just thought it warranted a spot in the databse, if anyone has climbed this route, speak up, tell me about it, let's update the description.

Example

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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