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Placing gear on sport (bolted) route = negative style?
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By csproul
From Rancho Cordova, CA
Sep 17, 2013
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background

John Wilder wrote:
This is only true if you make the clip, dude. If you blow the clip with the slack you've pulled out, the fall is absolutely further if you clip above your head. That said, there are of course individual circumstances that dictate when/where you clip- and i have definitely clipped above my head, but I much prefer clipping at chest/waist level.

John, that is not entirely true. If you pull up slack and miss the clip and fall, the fall is the same length as it would be if you climbed up to the bolt (at waist level), missed the clip and fell, assuming you didn't pull up excess slack. Draw a diagram and I think you'll see that this is true, unless I have really missed something with my math (it's happened before!). The main difference is that you'd end up lower clipping above your head, so that is a real consideration if there is groundfall (or ledge) potential, which is relevant to the OP. I still think that your suggestion of using an extended draw is probably one of the best options out there...especially if you can get your climbing partner to hang it:)


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By ian watson
From Albuquerque, NM
Sep 17, 2013

I place extra gear all the time, I don’t have time or desire to spend anymore time this year in the hospital. I prefer trad over sport anyways so “mixed routes” are funner for me anyways.


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By rging
From Salt Lake City, Ut
Sep 17, 2013
CoR

Is this a rhetorical question or one that has no correct answer?


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Sep 17, 2013

csproul wrote:
John, that is not entirely true. If you pull up slack and miss the clip and fall, the fall is the same length as it would be if you climbed up to the bolt (at waist level), missed the clip and fell, assuming you didn't pull up excess slack. Draw a diagram and I think you'll see that this is true, unless I have really missed something with my math (it's happened before!). The main difference is that you'd end up lower clipping above your head, so that is a real consideration if there is groundfall (or ledge) potential, which is relevant to the OP. I still think that your suggestion of using an extended draw is probably one of the best options out there...especially if you can get your climbing partner to hang it:)


fair enough- i did the math in my head and you're right. however, the fact that you start your fall lower, but fall the same distance is an obvious consideration if you're clipping at or below the 3rd bolt.


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By Brad M
Sep 17, 2013

csproul wrote:
Utterly untrue. Safe clipping can occur anywhere you have the best stance and can reach the draw...above your head, at your waist, or even below your waist. The fall length is the same whether you clip above your head or if you clip the bolt at your waist, the only difference is that you end up lower (since you started lower) if you clip above your head. This is only a consideration if there is something to hit on the way down. To the OP, my preferred option would be to extend the draw to the best clipping stance, or use the cam. In all likelihood, if I used the cam, I'd probably clip the cam and the bolt. Do whatever you need to do to keep yourself safeci, especiallylly given that it is a sport climb.


Think about what you just said there "the only difference is that you end up lower (since you started lower) if you clip above your head." When decking is possible, isn't this exactly what you want to avoid, and why clipping at the waist is safer? Quit doing the math in your head because it's obviously not working for you. Go to your local crag and climb up high enough to give a safe fall. With your next bolt at peen level, let go and see where you end up. Now climb just below that bolt, pull the rope up over your head as if you really have to stretch for it, and fall. I hope you do this far enough up because you're going for a ride.


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By Eric Engberg
Sep 17, 2013

Brad M wrote:
Think about what you just said there "the only difference is that you end up lower (since you started lower) if you clip above your head." When decking is possible, isn't this exactly what you want to avoid, and why clipping at the waist is safer? Quit doing the math in your head because it's obviously not working for you. Go to your local crag and climb up high enough to give a safe fall. With your next bolt at peen level, let go and see where you end up. Now climb just below that bolt, pull the rope up over your head as if you really have to stretch for it, and fall. I hope you do this far enough up because you're going for a ride.


But you are not going for a LONGER ride - as has been shown by several people - I was first - up thread. Yes you might deck out because you end up lower - the point you are obsessing on - but conversly you may end up smacking your mellon on the edge of an over hang that you would have cleared if you had fallen lower. Contived scenerio - absolutely. But what is not conjecture is the fact taht you see people bypassing huge clipping holds below a bolt so that they can climb up higher and skip from sketchy holds "because it's safer". What is so difficult about grasping the concept of clipping from the best holds?


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By Avalon'cha
From your girlfriend's bedroom
Sep 17, 2013

csproul wrote:
John, that is not entirely true. If you pull up slack and miss the clip and fall, the fall is the same length as it would be if you climbed up to the bolt (at waist level), missed the clip and fell, assuming you didn't pull up excess slack. Draw a diagram and I think you'll see that this is true, unless I have really missed something with my math (it's happened before!). The main difference is that you'd end up lower clipping above your head, so that is a real consideration if there is groundfall (or ledge) potential, which is relevant to the OP. I still think that your suggestion of using an extended draw is probably one of the best options out there...especially if you can get your climbing partner to hang it:)
quite doing math, and redraw the diagram your self. If you clip above your waist the rope has to go to the piece of gear then back down to your harness as opposed to a simple "point a to point B" (think of going around your ass to get to your elbow) Draw the picture and you WILL (should) see it, simple arifmaktic!


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By Avalon'cha
From your girlfriend's bedroom
Sep 17, 2013

Eric Engberg wrote:
But you are not going for a LONGER ride - as has been shown by several people - I was first - up thread. Yes you might deck out because you end up lower - the point you are obsessing on - but conversly you may end up smacking your mellon on the edge of an over hang that you would have cleared if you had fallen lower. Contived scenerio - absolutely. But what is not conjecture is the fact taht you see people bypassing huge clipping holds below a bolt so that they can climb up higher and skip from sketchy holds "because it's safer". What is so difficult about grasping the concept of clipping from the best holds?
but the length of fall is still longer, but the clipping is easier from below the bolt. As is the age old saying "It depends..."


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By Eric Engberg
Sep 17, 2013

Avalon'cha wrote:
but the length of fall is still longer, but the clipping is easier from below the bolt. As is the age old saying "It depends..."


Nope - not longer. Just end lower but you start your fall from a lower point too.


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By Avalon'cha
From your girlfriend's bedroom
Sep 17, 2013

Eric Engberg wrote:
Nope - not longer. Just end lower but you start your fall from a lower point too.

I don't climb on static ropes so my calculations account for rope stretch. Two inches could easily be the difference between a good bar story & a compound fracture. Climb "safe" ;)


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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Sep 17, 2013
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV

I would say, maybe. Maybe it could be considered bad style. Why? Because sport is meant to be done with bolts. Listen, it's practically the same as when a trad climber gets angry when someone bolts a crack. The two worlds should not intersect in this area.

jk

Placing gear is fun, and sometimes practical or required to keep a sport route's safety rating relatively soft. And it keeps the amount of holes in the stone lower. Some of my favorite climbs are traditionally done with both bolts and gear.


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By csproul
From Rancho Cordova, CA
Sep 17, 2013
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background

Brad M wrote:
Think about what you just said there "the only difference is that you end up lower (since you started lower) if you clip above your head." When decking is possible, isn't this exactly what you want to avoid, and why clipping at the waist is safer? Quit doing the math in your head because it's obviously not working for you. Go to your local crag and climb up high enough to give a safe fall. With your next bolt at peen level, let go and see where you end up. Now climb just below that bolt, pull the rope up over your head as if you really have to stretch for it, and fall. I hope you do this far enough up because you're going for a ride.

You don't read very well do you? I said just exactly the same thing. If hitting something is a possibility (including the ground, in case I need to spell it out for you) then I said that clipping at your waist would be safer. Even if clipping at the waist is better for the fall, it still makes no sense to make that clip off of poor clipping holds if there is a big jug down lower. It's not just the consequences of a fall, but the probability of falling in the first place.

Yes, I was ignoring the difference in rope stretch, which will be more significant lower on the route and less significant if there is a lot of rope out.


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By mitchy
From nunya gotdamn business.
Sep 17, 2013

So next time i'm up at Rumney or a local crag and cut a 5 to 10 second fart during a dyno, does that count as cheating. Does that "extra" blast of upward thrust give me an extra edge. I just had to axe is all.


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By Walt Barker
From AZ
Sep 17, 2013
Self portrait on the summit of Gray's Peak, CO

The Stoned Master wrote:
have you all ever placed gear on a bolted route to mitigate risk?


Hell yeah; whatever keeps you off the deck...in that situation.


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By rging
From Salt Lake City, Ut
Sep 18, 2013
CoR

I think the more appropriate question is, do climbers gain or lose intelligence when they aren't climbing?


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By Jake Jones
From The Eastern Flatlands
Sep 18, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

mitchy wrote:
So next time i'm up at Rumney or a local crag and cut a 5 to 10 second fart during a dyno, does that count as cheating. Does that "extra" blast of upward thrust give me an extra edge. I just had to axe is all.


My doodey chute faces out, not down. Still cheating though, as a good blast can sometimes hold me into the wall, and after a night of beer and burritos, I can cop a solid 5 sec. no hands rest.


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By Brad M
Sep 18, 2013

Jake Jones wrote:
My doodey chute faces out, not down. Still cheating though, as a good blast can sometimes hold me into the wall, and after a night of beer and burritos, I can cop a solid 5 sec. no hands rest.

You might be better off holding it in and exploiting the balloon effect over the course of the route rather than blow it all for one move.


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By 5.samadhi
Sep 18, 2013
me

The Stoned Master wrote:
Im looking into the psychological details over this question. I already know that when "push comes to shove" Ill do what I want to keep safe, have fun, etc (not concerned with image, etc). have you all ever placed gear on a bolted route to mitigate risk? I appreciate the opinions and the quick responses. I havent heard this specific situation discussed much and I like to know how/what/why my fellow climbers do/think/feel the way they do.

It is quite common in bc to NEED to place a cam in between runouts


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By David Gibbs
From Ottawa, On
Sep 18, 2013

Eric Engberg wrote:
Assume bolt A to bolt B is 10 feet. You clip A, climb to B, attempting to clip at your waist you fall. You had 10 feet of rope out when you fell. The length of the fall is 20 feet. Agreed? Now you clip A, climb 5 feet towards B, pull out an additional 5 feet of slack - you now have 15 feet out - and fall. How far? If you think the answer if 30 feet you are wrong - it's still 20. In the first case you end up 10 feet below A, in the 2nd you are 15 feet below. If the ground is 12 feet below - oopsie... But it is an urban legend that falls are shorter if you clip at your waist. Cip from the best holds.


Your argument is valid if the person happens to be leading on a completely static rope -- 0% dynamic elongation (which even nominally "static" ropes don't actually have). With a more typical rope you'll probably get 15-30% rope stretch, depending on the weight of the person, thickness of the rope, newness of the rope, etc. That's an extra foot (or so) of fall in your example.

Still, the conclusion: clip from the best holds/stance is the right one.


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