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Placing gear on sport (bolted) route = negative style?
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By The Stoned Master
Administrator
From Pennsylvania
Sep 16, 2013
Day Lily.

Overall your thoughts? Im interested in your opinion because I already know the facts.

Now specifically where Im coming from/at with this:

I attempted a route on Saturday called Body Drama 5.11b/c at Safe Harbor South, Lancaster, PA. There is potential for a ground fall (not a full blown ground pounder but with rope stretch your feet are hitting the ground) while making the clip at the 3rd bolt (a taller individual is able to just clip from solid stance). I am not able to clip easily and it would require a ackward clip at the waist (which is where the ground fall potential comes in).

There is a solid horizontal about +/-1ft below the 3rd bolt where I should be able to get a bomber cam (potential ranging from a #1 to a #4).

If I FORGO (skip) the 3rd bolt BUT place a cam instead am I robbing myself of anything?

for conversation sake what if I did place the cam AND I clipped the 3rd bolt? seen as a negative thing by you?

I appreciate your time.

p.s ultimately ill do what I feel like (in terms of place pro vs not) but I do want to know what others think as I am not certain if I am ok with this or not. Climbing the route the way the FA did is important to me BUT safety and fun and not fucking with others (routes , opinions, ways, etc) is also very important.


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By Kyle Kimball
From Asheville, NC
Sep 16, 2013
J Clarks

You know if you do that you'll lose all respect and have to quit climbing forever.

Really though, why the hell are you asking this? Frankly I don't think anybody cares what you do- as long as you don't lie about it.


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Sep 16, 2013
modern man

its gotta be all gear or all bolts brah, the two dont mix and as you may know a real sporto hates to carry any extra weight and a real tradster only has double length slings which wouldnt work too well on that third bolt.

you robbed yourself of a true pinkpoint


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By Bill Kirby
From Baltimore Maryland
Sep 16, 2013
Me eating a cliff bar walking back from Frankenstein Amphitheater

Just don't leave that cam behind and ask for it back on MP lost and found.


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By zoso
Sep 16, 2013
avatar

Four words:
P F F T

And btw, clipping over your head puts more slack in the system than clipping at your waist.


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By Bob M
From Alpharetta, GA
Sep 16, 2013
T Wall

The judges have conferred, and there are no style point deductions.


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By Adam Stackhouse
Administrator
Sep 16, 2013
Courtright Reservoir, September 2013

The degree of safety is at the sole descrection of yourself. If you think risk equals "style" then forego the pro. Pretty simple, no?


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By Mark Pilate
Sep 16, 2013

There's a bomber crack within a foot of the bolt???

Place the cam, skip the bolt, then chop it on your way down.


(Ok, don't spit up your coffee, I'm only kidding....sort of)


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By The Stoned Master
Administrator
From Pennsylvania
Sep 16, 2013
Day Lily.

Im looking into the psychological details over this question. I already know that when "push comes to shove" Ill do what I want to keep safe, have fun, etc (not concerned with image, etc).

have you all ever placed gear on a bolted route to mitigate risk?

I appreciate the opinions and the quick responses. I havent heard this specific situation discussed much and I like to know how/what/why my fellow climbers do/think/feel the way they do.


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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Sep 16, 2013
Toofast

No worries, place the cam.


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Sep 16, 2013

only thing to consider here is the distance to the 4th bolt from the cam.

As mentioned above, you should be clipping at your waist- if you cannot, then the equipper set the route up wrong and i'd definitely place the cam (or go in direct and hang a double draw on the 3rd bolt so i can clip below and then again, or maybe just a long draw, depending on the scenario, then lower off and go for the red point).

I've got a project in Red Rock that I'll probably use gear on to mitigate a monster whip at the top of the route- I think the equipper botched the bolting job on it and it should have another bolt, but there is a horizontal there for gear, so i'll probably use it- at least while i'm working the route. Maybe not when I go for the redpoint. We'll see.

More often, though, if there's a bolt that's just a bit out of reach, i'll pre-hang a long or double draw on my first burn either while climbing or with a stick clip (after going in direct if i need to be on the route), so i can clip from one stance and then again at the bolt, depending.


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By The Stoned Master
Administrator
From Pennsylvania
Sep 16, 2013
Day Lily.

John extending the draw then going for the redpoint is another fine option. It didnt even dawn on me to do that. I appreciate the time you took to answer. good luck on your project dude!


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By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Sep 16, 2013
...

"because I already know the facts."




LOL!


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By Brad M
Sep 16, 2013

The Stoned Master wrote:
I am not able to clip easily and it would require a ackward clip at the waist (which is where the ground fall potential comes in).

Clipping at the waist is inherently safer than pulling up a fukload of slack and doing it way over your head. Just ask your belayer to pay attention and pull in the rope dangling around his ankles and you'll be fine.


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By LawHous
From Colorado Springs, CO
Sep 16, 2013
Post climb celebration drinks with a sweet line in the background

There are no rules in climbing, do what makes sense to you.


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By md3
Sep 16, 2013

YOu know the difference between when you first try something and every clip feels desperate and then when you climb the same thing a couple of years later and you know you could solo it if you had to. You know when you are climbing well and when you are trying hard to learn how to climb something well. Its your progression and your game. As long as you aren't messing with anyone else, you can do whatever you want or feel you need to at the time to keep yourself as safe as you feel you need to be at the moment. Thats what I love about climbing.


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By The Stoned Master
Administrator
From Pennsylvania
Sep 16, 2013
Day Lily.

Lawhous you said it! keep that up please.


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By Peter Jackson
From Rumney, NH
Sep 16, 2013
Just in case the two big belay anchors aren't obvious enough for you, here is where to find the belay station.

The Stoned Master wrote:
Im looking into the psychological details over this question. I already know that when "push comes to shove" Ill do what I want to keep safe, have fun, etc (not concerned with image, etc). have you all ever placed gear on a bolted route to mitigate risk? I appreciate the opinions and the quick responses. I havent heard this specific situation discussed much and I like to know how/what/why my fellow climbers do/think/feel the way they do.


The bomber crack a few feet below the third bolt may have influenced the placement of that 3rd bolt. In other words, the route developer may have thought, "Since there's a bomber horizontal here, I can place the 3rd bolt a little higher".

Even at a place like Rumney, where grid-bolting is common, there are climbs where a piece of gear is intended. Two that I can think of offhand are:

mountainproject.com/v/snake-skin-slab/105923846

"There is a small runout between the last bolt and the anchors that can be protected with a small cam."

And: mountainproject.com/v/truth-in-advertising/105923587

"Continue up and right past two more bolts to a hidden pin in a horizontal (can be backed up with a medium cam)"

On balance, I think if more people brought a little gear with them when they went to sport crags, they'd have a better time, be safer, and build better skills.

Place the pro below the 3rd bolt and go! (and by all means, clip the bolt)


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By The Stoned Master
Administrator
From Pennsylvania
Sep 16, 2013
Day Lily.

I appreciate the opinions. Peter Jackson awesome post.

Its because of posts like these (on this thread) that I can find where I "sit" with certain matters/topics. Your opinions act as reference points for me.

thank you.


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By Peter Jackson
From Rumney, NH
Sep 16, 2013
Just in case the two big belay anchors aren't obvious enough for you, here is where to find the belay station.

I just took a look at your photos of the route in question.

mountainproject.com/v/108339805

I don't think I'd spend time placing a cam in that horizontal. Is it possible that you just haven't found the right clipping stance? Also: it's hard to tell with the foreshortening, but I don't think you'd deck if you hip-clipped that 3rd bolt.

Do whatever you want to feel protected on that route: no "points" off for placing the cam. But I suspect you've missed something on the route (having never seen the route, this is just my guess).


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By csproul
From Rancho Cordova, CA
Sep 16, 2013
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background

Brad M wrote:
Clipping at the waist is inherently safer than pulling up a fukload of slack and doing it way over your head. Just ask your belayer to pay attention and pull in the rope dangling around his ankles and you'll be fine.

Utterly untrue. Safe clipping can occur anywhere you have the best stance and can reach the draw...above your head, at your waist, or even below your waist. The fall length is the same whether you clip above your head or if you clip the bolt at your waist, the only difference is that you end up lower (since you started lower) if you clip above your head. This is only a consideration if there is something to hit on the way down.

To the OP, my preferred option would be to extend the draw to the best clipping stance, or use the cam. In all likelihood, if I used the cam, I'd probably clip the cam and the bolt. Do whatever you need to do to keep yourself safeci, especiallylly given that it is a sport climb.


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By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Sep 16, 2013
...

Countdown:

10...

9...

8...

7...


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By Derek Doucet
Sep 16, 2013

Locker wrote:
Countdown: 10... 9... 8... 7...

LOL, I'm surprised it's taking this long...


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By Drew Hayes
From Charlotte, NC
Sep 16, 2013
Lost in Space

Since it IS a sport route, the only way to complete it in good style is to place the cam, then get the third bolt, then downclimb to retrieve the cam, then complete the route.


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By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Sep 16, 2013
...

"Yer GONNA die!!!"


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By Rockbanned
From Plattsburgh, Ny
Sep 16, 2013
Slab...

Why in the hell is there a bolt that close to a crack like that? I'd guess whomever bolted it lacked some brains. You don't bolt near a crack. If they did it up here they'd crucify you, heh heh heh...

On your question, consider it a mixed line, lol... I place gear anywhere I can. I'm climbing it, not my 6'5" tall friend. If I want to put gear in every 4' I damn well will. And if someone doesn't like it or has something to say about it, they can walk to another section of the cliff dude. Climb for you. F#$% everyone elses opinions..


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