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Placing gear on sport (bolted) route = negative style?
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Sep 16, 2013
Day Lily.
Overall your thoughts? Im interested in your opinion because I already know the facts.

Now specifically where Im coming from/at with this:

I attempted a route on Saturday called Body Drama 5.11b/c at Safe Harbor South, Lancaster, PA. There is potential for a ground fall (not a full blown ground pounder but with rope stretch your feet are hitting the ground) while making the clip at the 3rd bolt (a taller individual is able to just clip from solid stance). I am not able to clip easily and it would require a ackward clip at the waist (which is where the ground fall potential comes in).

There is a solid horizontal about +/-1ft below the 3rd bolt where I should be able to get a bomber cam (potential ranging from a #1 to a #4).

If I FORGO (skip) the 3rd bolt BUT place a cam instead am I robbing myself of anything?

for conversation sake what if I did place the cam AND I clipped the 3rd bolt? seen as a negative thing by you?

I appreciate your time.

p.s ultimately ill do what I feel like (in terms of place pro vs not) but I do want to know what others think as I am not certain if I am ok with this or not. Climbing the route the way the FA did is important to me BUT safety and fun and not fucking with others (routes , opinions, ways, etc) is also very important.
The Stoned Master
From Pennsylvania
Joined Dec 5, 2012
3,586 points
Sep 16, 2013
J Clarks
You know if you do that you'll lose all respect and have to quit climbing forever.

Really though, why the hell are you asking this? Frankly I don't think anybody cares what you do- as long as you don't lie about it.
Kyle Kimball
From Asheville, NC
Joined Sep 17, 2011
61 points
Sep 16, 2013
the man was smart
its gotta be all gear or all bolts brah, the two dont mix and as you may know a real sporto hates to carry any extra weight and a real tradster only has double length slings which wouldnt work too well on that third bolt.

you robbed yourself of a true pinkpoint
T Roper
From VA,NM,UT,CT,MA
Joined Mar 31, 2006
1,053 points
Sep 16, 2013
Me eating a cliff bar walking back from Frankenste...
Just don't leave that cam behind and ask for it back on MP lost and found. Bill Kirby
From Baltimore Maryland
Joined Jul 21, 2012
111 points
Sep 16, 2013
avatar
Four words:
P F F T

And btw, clipping over your head puts more slack in the system than clipping at your waist.
zoso
Joined Jun 3, 2007
507 points
Sep 16, 2013
T Wall
The judges have conferred, and there are no style point deductions. Bob M
From Alpharetta, GA
Joined Oct 6, 2009
50 points
Administrator
Sep 16, 2013
Courtright Reservoir, September 2013
The degree of safety is at the sole descrection of yourself. If you think risk equals "style" then forego the pro. Pretty simple, no? Adam Stackhouse
Joined Jan 3, 2001
13,458 points
Sep 16, 2013
There's a bomber crack within a foot of the bolt???

Place the cam, skip the bolt, then chop it on your way down.


(Ok, don't spit up your coffee, I'm only kidding....sort of)
Mark Pilate
Joined Jun 25, 2013
11 points
 
Administrator
Sep 16, 2013
Day Lily.
Im looking into the psychological details over this question. I already know that when "push comes to shove" Ill do what I want to keep safe, have fun, etc (not concerned with image, etc).

have you all ever placed gear on a bolted route to mitigate risk?

I appreciate the opinions and the quick responses. I havent heard this specific situation discussed much and I like to know how/what/why my fellow climbers do/think/feel the way they do.
The Stoned Master
From Pennsylvania
Joined Dec 5, 2012
3,586 points
Sep 16, 2013
Toofast
No worries, place the cam. Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Joined Jun 7, 2006
3,331 points
Sep 16, 2013
only thing to consider here is the distance to the 4th bolt from the cam.

As mentioned above, you should be clipping at your waist- if you cannot, then the equipper set the route up wrong and i'd definitely place the cam (or go in direct and hang a double draw on the 3rd bolt so i can clip below and then again, or maybe just a long draw, depending on the scenario, then lower off and go for the red point).

I've got a project in Red Rock that I'll probably use gear on to mitigate a monster whip at the top of the route- I think the equipper botched the bolting job on it and it should have another bolt, but there is a horizontal there for gear, so i'll probably use it- at least while i'm working the route. Maybe not when I go for the redpoint. We'll see.

More often, though, if there's a bolt that's just a bit out of reach, i'll pre-hang a long or double draw on my first burn either while climbing or with a stick clip (after going in direct if i need to be on the route), so i can clip from one stance and then again at the bolt, depending.
John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Joined Feb 1, 2004
2,377 points
Administrator
Sep 16, 2013
Day Lily.
John extending the draw then going for the redpoint is another fine option. It didnt even dawn on me to do that. I appreciate the time you took to answer. good luck on your project dude! The Stoned Master
From Pennsylvania
Joined Dec 5, 2012
3,586 points
Sep 16, 2013
...
"because I already know the facts."




LOL!
Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Joined Oct 13, 2002
2,361 points
Sep 16, 2013
The Stoned Master wrote:
I am not able to clip easily and it would require a ackward clip at the waist (which is where the ground fall potential comes in).

Clipping at the waist is inherently safer than pulling up a fukload of slack and doing it way over your head. Just ask your belayer to pay attention and pull in the rope dangling around his ankles and you'll be fine.
Brad M
Joined Sep 30, 2012
0 points
Sep 16, 2013
Post climb celebration drinks with a sweet line in...
There are no rules in climbing, do what makes sense to you. LawHous
From Colorado Springs, CO
Joined Jul 21, 2012
190 points
Sep 16, 2013
YOu know the difference between when you first try something and every clip feels desperate and then when you climb the same thing a couple of years later and you know you could solo it if you had to. You know when you are climbing well and when you are trying hard to learn how to climb something well. Its your progression and your game. As long as you aren't messing with anyone else, you can do whatever you want or feel you need to at the time to keep yourself as safe as you feel you need to be at the moment. Thats what I love about climbing. md3
Joined Jun 2, 2006
41 points
 
Administrator
Sep 16, 2013
Day Lily.
Lawhous you said it! keep that up please. The Stoned Master
From Pennsylvania
Joined Dec 5, 2012
3,586 points
Sep 16, 2013
Just in case the two big belay anchors aren't obvi...
The Stoned Master wrote:
Im looking into the psychological details over this question. I already know that when "push comes to shove" Ill do what I want to keep safe, have fun, etc (not concerned with image, etc). have you all ever placed gear on a bolted route to mitigate risk? I appreciate the opinions and the quick responses. I havent heard this specific situation discussed much and I like to know how/what/why my fellow climbers do/think/feel the way they do.


The bomber crack a few feet below the third bolt may have influenced the placement of that 3rd bolt. In other words, the route developer may have thought, "Since there's a bomber horizontal here, I can place the 3rd bolt a little higher".

Even at a place like Rumney, where grid-bolting is common, there are climbs where a piece of gear is intended. Two that I can think of offhand are:

mountainproject.com/v/snake-sk...

"There is a small runout between the last bolt and the anchors that can be protected with a small cam."

And: mountainproject.com/v/truth-in...

"Continue up and right past two more bolts to a hidden pin in a horizontal (can be backed up with a medium cam)"

On balance, I think if more people brought a little gear with them when they went to sport crags, they'd have a better time, be safer, and build better skills.

Place the pro below the 3rd bolt and go! (and by all means, clip the bolt)
Peter Jackson
From Rumney, NH
Joined Aug 9, 2010
509 points
Administrator
Sep 16, 2013
Day Lily.
I appreciate the opinions. Peter Jackson awesome post.

Its because of posts like these (on this thread) that I can find where I "sit" with certain matters/topics. Your opinions act as reference points for me.

thank you.
The Stoned Master
From Pennsylvania
Joined Dec 5, 2012
3,586 points
Sep 16, 2013
Just in case the two big belay anchors aren't obvi...
I just took a look at your photos of the route in question.

mountainproject.com/v/10833980...

I don't think I'd spend time placing a cam in that horizontal. Is it possible that you just haven't found the right clipping stance? Also: it's hard to tell with the foreshortening, but I don't think you'd deck if you hip-clipped that 3rd bolt.

Do whatever you want to feel protected on that route: no "points" off for placing the cam. But I suspect you've missed something on the route (having never seen the route, this is just my guess).
Peter Jackson
From Rumney, NH
Joined Aug 9, 2010
509 points
Sep 16, 2013
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the backgrou...
Brad M wrote:
Clipping at the waist is inherently safer than pulling up a fukload of slack and doing it way over your head. Just ask your belayer to pay attention and pull in the rope dangling around his ankles and you'll be fine.

Utterly untrue. Safe clipping can occur anywhere you have the best stance and can reach the draw...above your head, at your waist, or even below your waist. The fall length is the same whether you clip above your head or if you clip the bolt at your waist, the only difference is that you end up lower (since you started lower) if you clip above your head. This is only a consideration if there is something to hit on the way down.

To the OP, my preferred option would be to extend the draw to the best clipping stance, or use the cam. In all likelihood, if I used the cam, I'd probably clip the cam and the bolt. Do whatever you need to do to keep yourself safeci, especiallylly given that it is a sport climb.
csproul
From Davis, CA
Joined Dec 3, 2009
109 points
Sep 16, 2013
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Countdown:

10...

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Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Joined Oct 13, 2002
2,361 points
Sep 16, 2013
Locker wrote:
Countdown: 10... 9... 8... 7...

LOL, I'm surprised it's taking this long...
Derek Doucet
Joined Apr 26, 2010
185 points
Sep 16, 2013
yay bouldering
Since it IS a sport route, the only way to complete it in good style is to place the cam, then get the third bolt, then downclimb to retrieve the cam, then complete the route. Drew Hayes
From Charlotte, NC
Joined Jul 25, 2011
94 points
 
Sep 16, 2013
...
"Yer GONNA die!!!" Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Joined Oct 13, 2002
2,361 points
Sep 16, 2013
Slab...
Why in the hell is there a bolt that close to a crack like that? I'd guess whomever bolted it lacked some brains. You don't bolt near a crack. If they did it up here they'd crucify you, heh heh heh...

On your question, consider it a mixed line, lol... I place gear anywhere I can. I'm climbing it, not my 6'5" tall friend. If I want to put gear in every 4' I damn well will. And if someone doesn't like it or has something to say about it, they can walk to another section of the cliff dude. Climb for you. F#$% everyone elses opinions..
Rockbanned
From Plattsburgh, Ny
Joined Dec 18, 2011
221 points


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