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Partially torn webbing on C4
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By Evan Sanders
From Westminster, CO
Oct 14, 2011
Flaming Pumpkin

Took a fall on a basically new #2 C4 the other day, and at the point where the biner pinches the webbing during the fall, there is now a tear in it about a quarter of the way through. Now i know i need to send it in to get reslung (which is really frustrating, that was the first time I'd placed my new #2 when i fell on it), but this weekend I'm going out to NC to Linville and as of right now that's my only #2 (sent in my other cam in that size to get reslung too!).

So my question is, is it still okay as just an anchor piece, where it (probably) won't take a dynamic load, or is a 1/4 of the way torn through webbing unsafe for an anchor? (Edit, since people can't understand what I'm asking, which is my fault I guess: I'm not going to actually use this, I'm just wondering if theoretically it would be safe or not)

I'll get a picture up when i get back to my place to show you the severity of it. I thought about trying to calculate what static load it could theoretically hold because I really want to know what the result would be (without risking my life), but I don't have to equipment (nor do i really want) to measure the radius of the curvature at the tip of the rip and some other parts of the equation I just can't find online or in books. If i can find another way to measure the theoretical max load I'll let everyone know what i find out.

Changed the title of the post because apparently it's confusing people.


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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Oct 14, 2011
Cleo's Needle

Seriously?


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By Evan Sanders
From Westminster, CO
Oct 14, 2011
Flaming Pumpkin

Ray Pinpillage wrote:
Seriously?


Nah not really. I was just curious if anyone would do it.


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By Evan Sanders
From Westminster, CO
Oct 14, 2011
Flaming Pumpkin

dhayan wrote:
Just clip the thumb loop


I mean that was option #1, but I want to know what people think if that option wasn't available (not really sure in what situation it wouldn't be available, but again, I'm curious).


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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Oct 14, 2011
Cleo's Needle

Just take soft whippers on that piece and use the money you saved on a new dog leash made from a section of old rope.


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Oct 14, 2011

either clip the thumb loop or leave it at home. don't clip the torn nylon sling.

using it in the anchor is, imho, not an option- its one thing to trust your own life to a piece of torn webbing, its another to subject other people to do the same.


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By Timmamok
From Durango, CO
Oct 14, 2011
crack at undisclosed location - my little proj

I thought you said you were a trad climber?


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Oct 14, 2011
El Chorro

I can't believe it took, what, ten posts for someone to say "just tie some webbing on."

Evan, I don't know you personally, but we've talked enough for me to know that you didn't really need anyone to tell you not to climb on torn webbing. But a water knot with long tails will do just fine until you are able to send it in for a new sling. This was normal practice for decades!


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By dorseyec
Oct 14, 2011

I guess since you had to post a question like this you also didn't realize you can just tie on some cord like the above poster suggested, seems super obvious and a lot easier/safer than trying to calculate out all the fall forces this piece might see and how strong torn webbing is. An instructional course might be in order!


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By divnamite
From New York, NY
Oct 14, 2011

Before you do your own sling, check out this link by BD's QC Blog.

So what and how should you re-sling your BD cams? Of course you can do anything you like:

  • One-inch tubular webbing with a knot will work.
  • Sending them to someone that knows how to sew structural climbing gear, and have them bartack a single loop of SuperTape will work.
  • Having someone that knows what they’re doing bartack a double length of SuperTape or 10 mm Dynex will work.

But it’s important that you understand the ramifications of such methods:
  • The strength will be compromised in all cases.
  • The thumb loop will get tweaked much easier in all cases.
  • BD doesn’t warrant any modifications to the design of our products.

And note:
  • Dyneema/Spectra doesn’t hold a knot. Never use a knot with Dyneema/Spectra.
  • And when it comes to sewing any structural climbing gear, mom’s sewing machine won’t cut it. Be sure to go to a shop that has experience with CLIMBING gear and knows what they’re doing.


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By Evan Sanders
From Westminster, CO
Oct 14, 2011
Flaming Pumpkin

Ryan Williams wrote:
I can't believe it took, what, ten posts for someone to say "just tie some webbing on." Evan, I don't know you personally, but we've talked enough for me to know that you didn't really need anyone to tell you not to climb on torn webbing. But a water knot with long tails will do just fine until you are able to send it in for a new sling. This was normal practice for decades!



Yeah, I know not to climb on it. I mean i've said at least twice this was just a curiosity question wondering if anyone would do it, so I'm not really sure why people are taking this seriously. I also said I know to clip the thumb loop, but was just curious about what people thought. It was kind of a time waster question.

This was more a question wondering if it was actually attempted, would the webbing fail or would it be safe, not should I climb on it. Two totally different questions. Maybe i should have been clearer. Of course I'm not actually going to use it.

So, ignoring the people who ignored what i said, (I mean an instruction course? Really?) here's a photo. I may actually pull test it in our university's lab just for fun (as I'm sure the webbing will rip before the cam fails, but I don't know that for sure so that's still a toss up).
Torn webbing. Blurry photo because of a shaky hand :/
Torn webbing. Blurry photo because of a shaky hand :/


Anybody done previous pull tests of partially torn webbing? I'm not really wondering about a dynamic load, just a static load for anchors. Although to get the information for both would be nice...


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By Evan Sanders
From Westminster, CO
Oct 14, 2011
Flaming Pumpkin

Ray Pinpillage wrote:
Just take soft whippers on that piece and use the money you saved on a new dog leash made from a section of old rope.


I'm just wondering how the stupid rip even happened. I don't really care about the money to resling it. Is it even possible for the webbing to pinch over the biner hard enough to rip it?


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By rock_fencer
From Columbia, SC
Oct 14, 2011
Myself placing a a blue/yellow offset MC to protect between Bolt 2/3 just post crux . <br /> <br />Picture credit goes to eric Singleton, and many thanks to Josh Bagget for the great belay.

Evan Sanders wrote:
I'm just wondering how the stupid rip even happened. I don't really care about the money to resling it. Is it even possible for the webbing to pinch over the biner hard enough to rip it?


possibly a bur in the biner??


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By Evan Sanders
From Westminster, CO
Oct 14, 2011
Flaming Pumpkin

rock_fencer wrote:
possibly a bur in the biner??


That's always a possibility, although i was in a pretty clear/plant free area when i fell. I'm also pretty positive it didn't scrape rock, it was in a crack under a roof.

Oh did you mean burr as in rough spot on the biner? My first thought was the plant burr, but rereading your post that doesn't make much sense. It's smooth, so doubtful, but who knows.


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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Oct 14, 2011
Cleo's Needle

Defective sling? Post a non blurry picture of the sling and associated biner.

Don't tie on new webbing, BD doubles their slings for a reason.

Call me crazy but I'd call BD and get their thoughts.


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Oct 14, 2011
El Chorro

I'd go whip on it w/ a few good pieces backing it up. Or clip a short draw to the sling and a long one to the thumb loop.

I bet it would hold a 5kn (average) fall.


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By Evan Sanders
From Westminster, CO
Oct 14, 2011
Flaming Pumpkin

Ray Pinpillage wrote:
Defective sling? Post a non blurry picture of the sling and associated biner. Don't tie on new webbing, BD doubles their slings for a reason. Call me crazy but I'd call BD and get their thoughts.


I talked to BD, they kind of gave me a run around because I think that they thought i was trying to get a free sling replacement for calling the sling defective. I'll try again, evidently being clear in my questions isn't my strong point.

Here's a clearer picture with the biner pulling on the webbing like it would in a fall

sling
sling


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By rock_fencer
From Columbia, SC
Oct 14, 2011
Myself placing a a blue/yellow offset MC to protect between Bolt 2/3 just post crux . <br /> <br />Picture credit goes to eric Singleton, and many thanks to Josh Bagget for the great belay.

Evan Sanders wrote:
That's always a possibility, although i was in a pretty clear/plant free area when i fell. I'm also pretty positive it didn't scrape rock, it was in a crack under a roof. Oh did you mean burr as in rough spot on the biner? My first thought was the plant burr, but rereading your post that doesn't make much sense. It's smooth, so doubtful, but who knows.


yeah i meant a small gouge in the metal that arises from falling on bolts. Though that biner is mighty shiny so doubtful. Looks like it got pinched against a crystal on the rock. Soft goods wear out, just get it replaced. not worth to much thought


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By Brian Abram
From Columbia, SC
Oct 14, 2011
Brian Abram, leading pitch 2 of Dinkus Dog on the South Side of Looking Glass.  Kyle Sox is belaying.

Looks like a CAMP Nano biner. I wonder if the smaller biner with its smaller contact area with the sling made a difference. I use nothing but Nanos for my rack.

If I was gonna go run up moderates in Linville and really wanted to take that piece, I'd clip a quickdraw to the thumb loop and use it and then mail it off Monday. Personally, I wouldn't bring it if I planned anything harder than 5.7.


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Oct 14, 2011
OTL

Evan Sanders wrote:
Anybody done previous pull tests of partially torn webbing?


Eventually there should be data here:
www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2529000


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By Eric Fjellanger
Oct 14, 2011
Me on top of Chianti Spire

Brian Abram wrote:
Looks like a CAMP Nano biner.


No it doesn't, it looks like a gold neutrino.

Brian Abram wrote:
Personally, I wouldn't bring it if I planned anything harder than 5.7.


Sounds like spray!


I would tie on some 9/16ths webbing to back it up and go with that until you can send it in.

It is confusing to me also how it would have torn.

Honestly if I found this had happened in the middle of a multipitch climb, I would have continued on using the cam without thinking about it too hard. Even with the tear it should be pretty strong.


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By dorseyec
Oct 14, 2011

How were we supposed to know this was a "hypothetical" question? You say you are going to Linville next weekend, this is your only #2, so would it be alright to use in an anchor.... That doesn't sound very hypothetical. Also you never mention in the original post about clipping into the thumb loop instead. Id say this was a serious question you are back pedaling on...

But regardless I do remember someone doing pull tests of ripped dyneema and the stuff was still incredibly strong even ripped through most of the way. Of course this is nylon so results may very.

Either way why use a ripped sling? Or bother to make a post about it... there are so many ways around it its not even an issue.


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By dorseyec
Oct 14, 2011

Evan Sanders wrote:
That's always a possibility, although i was in a pretty clear/plant free area when i fell.


Also are you sure you are not a troll? Did you really think a plant burr could tear your sling?? Try not to epic in linville...


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By Woodchuck ATC
Oct 14, 2011
Rock Wars, RRG, 2008

Cut webbing off. Tie in your own piece of 1" tublular web like we did on all our solid stem cams back in the early 80's.


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By Evan Sanders
From Westminster, CO
Oct 14, 2011
Flaming Pumpkin

Eric Dorsey wrote:
Also are you sure you are not a troll? Did you really think a plant burr could tear your sling?? Try not to epic in linville...


Now you're just looking for reasons to be a dick.

But seeing as the definition of troll is a question just to get a response out of people for no reason, and it's a curiosity question..yeah i guess I'm trolling.


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By Evan Sanders
From Westminster, CO
Oct 14, 2011
Flaming Pumpkin

Woodchuck ATC wrote:
Cut webbing off. Tie in your own piece of 1" tublular web like we did on all our solid stem cams back in the early 80's.


  • sigh* Okay, but what about the answer to the question I asked? I've known since i first started trad climbing about these quick fixes, I was hoping to get more thought out responses about a hypothetical situation than the typical response you give a newbie climber.


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