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Oversticking a friend's cam
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By APBT1976
Apr 26, 2012
Black Dike 12/25/11

If i let you borrow my truck with a full tank of gas and it comes back with anything less than a full tank you dam well had bet i will not be loaning you my truck again.

Its kinda like if you really have to ask and it is not just a knee jerk reaction then?

What does a piece of gear really cost at the end of the day. I would think most would want to replace it?


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By Aaron O
From Seattle, WA
Apr 26, 2012
Angel's Crest

You got to split it. You both agreed to do the climb therefore you both agree to the consequences, especially if that means splitting the cost of replacing gear.


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By Elena Sera Jose
From colorado
Apr 27, 2012
bacon

I am all about gear maybe to an extreme but climbing is my life no kids so that's where cash is going its my passion but if I had caused someone financial damage intentionally or unintentionally (overcammed piece due to limited trad experience) it would be a matter of principal to repay the person ....that's just the way I am. Blessed with a chill lifestyle and a steady employment in this great country I put life and limb above and beyond cha ching maybe it's idealistic


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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Apr 27, 2012
Cleo's Needle

APBT1976 wrote:
If i let you borrow my truck with a full tank of gas and it comes back with anything less than a full tank you dam well had bet i will not be loaning you my truck again. Its kinda like if you really have to ask and it is not just a knee jerk reaction then? What does a piece of gear really cost at the end of the day. I would think most would want to replace it?


I know that in the course of climbing there are consumables, cams are one of them. If my partner got one of my cams stuck (or dropped it) and offered to pay for it I'd probably decline the offer. However, if my partner didn't say anything I wouldn't climb with them again. It isn't about the money, it's about respect and responsibility.

Here's an example. Last weekend went climbing several hundred miles from home base. I brought all the group gear (including stove fuel), did all the driving, and provided the car. My only stated expectation was that climbing partner pays for half the gas (we left with a full tank). We did the climb and it came time for this person to chip in for gas and he started arguing about how to calculate that half of the gas. I paid for the difference between what he'd pay and a full tank and then decided to never climb with that person again. If there is so little respect or responsibility that your partner can't own his/her share then they shouldn't be your partner. However, I don't generally ask friends to pay up for an accident when they don't try to skate out from under responsibility or try to ignore it.

And I certainly wouldn't grind someone about paying up,there's nothing worse than a nickle and dime motherfucker.


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By Elena Sera Jose
From colorado
Apr 27, 2012
bacon

Some people due to their lack of employment or financial situation will not contribute much and I got myself in a situation (car accident) with people I hardly knew that lets say could have gone better ...but lessons learned im better prepared myself for future endeavours that is not to say things cant get out if control but that all depends on a situation...usually things work themselves out in the end


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By bearbreeder
Apr 27, 2012

a real friend will cover any hardships they caused someone ... its that simple

last season i dropped one of my partners sling and biners, he offered to split it ... i said no effing way its my fault and i gave him the equivalent or better biners and slings off my rack that day

i have partners who are less than financially secure and work hard for every piece ... they cant really afford so be losing gear and not having their partners replace it ...

its simply having the respect for yr partners property ... if you arent a person who has such, then im going to make my "asshole" statement again ... dont climb with me ... i do drive people and do let them climb on my gear when they have none, most are appreciative of it and dont take advantage ... however ive dumped a partner or two who werent


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Apr 27, 2012
OTL

johnL wrote:
A girl who I'd had sex with a couple times that day already got one of my #1's stuck last year. She begged me to let her replace it. How do you think I answered? A friend (who was not a romantic partner) got a bike of mine stolen once because she left it unlocked. When she offered to replace it, again same answer.


DexterRutecki wrote:
Dude a chick got your bike stolen cause SHE left it unlocked and you didnt care? You sound like the nicest dude ever, can I borrow your bike? Seriously must have been a shitty bike or a really hot girl... I would be pretty pissed if my friend let me bike get stolen due to their own stupidity.



Dude, read it again.

Between the lines.

He left out the "answer" he gave them. It was obviously "Get on your knees..."


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By dougie2008
From Boulder
Apr 27, 2012

I am pretty new to the trad scene but in my experience climbing I have had a draw dropped on a sidewalk from ~50 feet up and my backup atc dropped from just shy of 100 feet up. I harped both people after they offered to replace it, "I see how it is dropping my shit". but I never made them replace them... they just bought the first round that night.

I would rather have a climbing partner that drops things occasional then have to climb alone. I like the idea of just slipping a replacement into someones rack...


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Apr 27, 2012

bearbreeder wrote:
a real friend will cover any hardships they caused someone ... its that simple


this.


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By drmartindell
From Homer, Ak
Apr 27, 2012

Wow, I didn't realize this would cause such lengthy discussion. I was never going to ask for my .75 cam back from my friend. He has been a great climbing partner and I didn't really care one way or the other. I posted this question just out of curiosity of what the supposed 'norm' is in this kind of situation.

This guy taught me to tie a figure eight knot 2 and a half years ago, taught me to belay, showed me how to build anchors, spent weeks and weeks with me instructing me on ice, went on a five day ice climbing trip, went on a week long Red Rock trip, and continues to climb and teach me today all out of his love for this sport. I clearly DON'T CARE if he lost a cam of mine on accident.

All of that being said I met up with him tonight at our climbing gym for a session of practice. We climbed for awhile and as we were packing up and without any other words he tossed me a .75 he had brought with him. He's a class act and judging by the majority of the comments he acted in a way that most of you agree with. Thanks for all the comments.


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Apr 27, 2012
El Chorro

I'd offer to replace it if I got it stuck or dropped it, but I wouldn't expect anyone else to do the same. At the end of the day we're talking about, what, 50 bucks? That's not nearly enough money forme to get upset about. If I had a partner that continued to losemy gear w.o replacing it, i'd ditch him cuz he's an idiot, but not because othe money.


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By Dom
Administrator
From New Brunswick Canada
Apr 27, 2012
Moby dick 5.11-

He should replace it. Everyone has different ethics on stuff like that but I know (or think I know) that the ppl I climb with would offer to replace it. This would be after having worked on getting the cam out for at least 30 mins each.


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By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Apr 27, 2012
You stay away from mah pig!

John's answer nails it. Don't climb with people who are likely to get your gear stuck, but don't make a big deal of it when it happens. The only exception is that sometimes, when I've done longer climbs where it is likely we may lose or leave gear, we make a pre-climb agreement that whatever gets lost, both of us split the cost 50/50, no matter who loses it.

Also, when cragging, I usually prefer someone who has gotten my gear stuck to just let me go tinker with it, so that if it gets stuck worse, I'm the one who is responsible.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Apr 27, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

I like Ryan's and John's answers. If the guy doesn't at least make even a half-assed effort to offer something, he's a dick and forget about climbing- I just don't want to be around dicks period. I'm pretty fortunate my friends don't feel the same way.

If he does offer, you refuse it. As they say, it's the thought that counts. Both of you go over what in the world caused the cam to get stuck and learn from it. Unless it's an OP Link (which shouldn't get stuck either if placed correctly, but they seem to be more prone), it shouldn't get stuck- you just overcammed it, or didn't extend it.

If you get another one stuck after all that, reevaluate your gear-placing- or his or whatever. I think the key is figuring out what got it stuck in the first place. Did you pull the trigger and push it in further when you fumbled it while trying to clean it? Was it overcammed to begin with, and then walk in? Figure that out and how to prevent it, and you probably won't have to cover this issue again.

If I get it stuck, I'm not even offering to replace it. I'm buying one and giving it to my buddy the next time I see him.


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By Bob Dobalina
Apr 27, 2012

If you get a friends gear stuck or drop it, you should replace it (or at least offer!) If I had a partner that just shrugged his shoulders when that happened, I'd never climb with him again!

I dropped a biner full of (my partners) micro nuts on a wall once. Before we even got home, I had stopped off at a climbing shop where I payed full retail to replace the gear I had lost.

And once, my partner ended up getting a cam of mine stuck on a pitch. He ended up handing over one of his off of his rack as soon as we had finished the climb.


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By mcarizona
From Flag
Apr 27, 2012

Stich: "Now if you insist on buying your friend a new cam, just sneak it onto his rack when he's not looking. "

I had to sneak a biner onto my friend's rack because he wouldn't accept a replacement when I dropped one off the elephant's trunk. Now (kinda funny) I see it all the time and almost get it back when we sort gear. I like the 'enjoy a pint' idea though, seems like a lot less pressure.

Steve


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By 1Eric Rhicard
Apr 27, 2012
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

If I am using a tool of yours and break or lose it I will replace it. I expect the same from my friends. People I climb with would offer to replace it. I cannot imagine not offering to replace it. As long as someone offers they are good. Don't offer and you will be on a different list. Some friends as is the case with this thread have given so much I would never ask for them to replace it. I would also be surprised if they didn't offer to replace it.

I think I will start offering trad classes to hot female climbers. Thanks John, your contributions are invaluable.


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By Jeff Thomas
Apr 27, 2012

If we're on a road trip in my car, my buddy is driving and we get in an accident, there's no way I'm gonna ask him to fork over the deductible. If he offers to split it, that's cool, but I'm not gonna ask for it. (It helps that I have a low deductible)

If my buddy borrows my car and gets in an accident. I'll ask him to cover the deductible.


If someone gets your gear stuck while you're climbing with them. Then just chalk it up to the cost of climbing. Gear gets stuck, dropped, and just generally lost from time to time.

If someone borrows my gear and gets it stuck, then I'd expect them to cover it. Whether or not I ask them to do so depends on who they are.


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By fat cow
From Salinas, CA
Apr 27, 2012
perfect seam

Jeff Thomas wrote:
just chalk it up to the cost of climbing. Gear gets stuck, dropped, and just generally lost from time to time.


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By Price
From SLC, UT
Apr 27, 2012

Ryan N wrote:
U place it... U buy it nuff said!


Exactly.


(The rest of you calling for OP to split the cost are a bunch of pussies. Take responsibility for your shitty placements.)


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By Tom Grummon
From Golden, CO
Apr 27, 2012
Top of Montezuma's Tower

Overcamming happens, things get dropped, climbing costs money.

Drmartindell, it sounds like you have found a great guy to climb with.

A few weeks ago I was borrowing a fiends rack of nuts, they were racked on a helium (side note, worst biner for racking nuts ever), we dropped a nut. We bought him a new nut and a new biner so it wouldn't happen again.

With that being said, split it, offer to replace it, don't worry too much about it. All valid options, depends on who you are and who you're climbing with.


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By slim
Administrator
Apr 27, 2012
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

Ryan N wrote:
U place it... U buy it nuff said!


we did a route last year with a party above us. as i lead the pitch there was gear everywhere on it. it turns out that the second wasn't quite truthful with the leader, and had only sport climbed a couple times, so she didn't know to remove the gear. i think in this case the above might not apply.

i would say split the cost in general, but if somebody is clearly at fault (ie dropping gear, totally forgetting to remove the gear, etc) they should probably pony up.


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By JLP
From The Internet
Apr 27, 2012

Losing your partners gear is a deficit to the friendship. Sometimes things balance out in the long run, sometimes not.


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By slim
Administrator
Apr 27, 2012
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

bearbreeder wrote:
and you sound like someone who runs away from taking responsibility for using other people's gear ;) guess you dont replace stuff you break, get stuck yourself or drop on multi that aint yours ...



when i climbed with john a few years ago he attempted a difficult and difficult to protect pitch. he placed a blue alien of mine, took a big whip, ripped the piece. after he came down we looked at it, and it had some minor damage. he immediately offered to replace it, which i declined as the piece was still functional. his offer was sincere, despite the fact that he wasn't in an overly plush financial position to just be buying gear for everybody.

i think his philosophy on it is pretty good.


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By kBobby
From Spokane, WA
Apr 27, 2012

slim wrote:
we did a route last year with a party above us. as i lead the pitch there was gear everywhere on it. it turns out that the second wasn't quite truthful with the leader, and had only sport climbed a couple times, so she didn't know to remove the gear. i think in this case the above might not apply.

When I climbed Fairview Dome many years ago, my partner and I stopped on Lunch Ledge to hang out, have lunch, and let the faster party that was right behind us pass. It was a guide and his client.

As the guide went past, we noticed that he only had a small set of nuts with him, not even a full set. On the next pitch, he didn't place any pro, and seemed to only be using the nuts for his anchors.

When the next party came up, just after we finished eating a quick lunch and were ready to start the pitch, they asked us if we were the ones who were leaving cams all along the route. It was the client. He hadn't bothered to remove even a single cam OR any of the slings the guide had put on them. These guys had cleaned an entire rack of cams on the first few pitches.

We told them which guide service the guide was working out of (we had chit-chatted with him a bit). I have always hoped they returned them to him, but I don't know if they did.


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