Organ Mountains - Re-bolting
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What do climbers think about re-bolting in the Organs? |
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D. |
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Dan, you mean rebolting, not retrobolting. Rebolting is simply replacing old bolts with new ones in as close to the same placement as possible if the hole itself cannot be reused. Retrobolting implies adding bolts, and hence is generally frowned upon. I say generally because some bolt jobs were botched from the get go, but it's a case by case basis. |
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There is a large number of very old and by now seriously dangerous bolts in need of replacement and what you are suggesting is much needed. The bolt on T or C in particular has caught a huge whipper and is in a bad way. The rap from Gertch needs help too. |
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Dan Carter wrote: I'm proposing to place new bolts next to old, existing bolts or within the same bolt line if all of the old placements are not necessary, such as in bolt ladders.Bottom line, if you don't know how to properly take out the old bolts then you aren't qualified to do any rebolting. |
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Thanks for all the replies. Feedback is what I wanted before starting this undertaking. Improper word use onmy part, I do mean re-bolting not retro bolting. Some of the bolt lines are were for aiding. However, these could easily be lead with new bolts and probably less bolts than the aid ladder required. Some of the aid bolts on the Tooth have already pulled out and I would not trust the ones on lesser spire even for aid. Most of the local climbers agree that the organ routes need some attention but aren't sure on the ethically correct way to proceed. I'm not sure who rebolted tooth or consequences but bolts are placed next to the old ones. This is what I have seen on many routes. I'll look into better ways of rebolting. Perhaps some more experienced bolters can help out with this project. Also, share this with any others that are interested in the organs and with those part of first ascent partys.Thanks again for all the input. |
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I had the same thoughts Greg. Pick the low hanging fruit first. |
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Rebolting is acceptable if you know what you're doing. Retro bolting is never acceptable. |
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The Organs are in great need for this ... have been for a long time. Dan/Marta - If you start a fund for the hardware, I will contribute. |
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Meme Guy wrote:. Retro bolting is never acceptable.Not always true at all. Some FAs screw it up royally and recognize it afterwards. Times change as well as equipment. Leaving it a mess if they and the community think it should change is just silly. There are plenty of cases of moronic climbers or ones completely whacked out on coke and using bad judgement. Blind worship of those ascents is ridiculous. There just has to be a very good reason and strong consensus to alter something. It is worth placing a high bar to protect people's route creations, but it shouldn't be infinitely high. |
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M Sprague wrote: Not always true at all. Some FAs screw it up royally and recognize it afterwards. Times change as well as equipment. Leaving it a mess if they and the community think it should change is just silly. There are plenty of cases of moronic climbers or ones completely whacked out on coke and using bad judgement. Blind worship of those ascents is ridiculous. There just has to be a very good reason and strong consensus to alter something. It is worth placing a high bar to protect people's route creations, but it shouldn't be infinitely high.Unless the FA gives permission, ANY retro bolting is bull shit, even if the FA was high on meth and muffs it. |
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Great idea. If you need help or funds, I'm in. |
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Meme Guy wrote: Unless the FA gives permission, ANY retro bolting is bull shit, even if the FA was high on meth and muffs it.Well, I doubt you could present a convincing argument for such absolutism, though the FA's wishes should certainly hold a lot of weight. A lot of times they can't even be found or are dead etc., at which time you have to use your and the community's collective wisdom. |
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I'm not sure that some of the bolts in question should be pulled as they do have historical value, going back to Royal Robbins in the 1950s. That said, I would not hang my hat on some of them. Maybe in a situation like that, supplementing, not removing, the historical mank may be more appropriate. |
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I'll throw in my 2cents: Dan, re-bolting is a great idea. In most cases, the FA's felt safe and likely were safe on those old bolts (and even some old pitons). That is the character of the climbing, and it is appropriate to retain that character. Unless there is historic significance to the old bolts, they should be removed and if possible existing holes re-used. If you ever get up on MRE, old bolt on 1st pitch is half coming out of it's hole (but it can be easily backed up with a cam), more importantly, rapping the route with a single rope requires use of an old two-bolt anchor that is questionable at best. Similarly, coming off the Spire requires use of an old two bolt anchor. In both cases, the bolts are 1/4", but appear solid, it's the hangers that worry me, they are thin, and rusty. Flexing under load is likely growing cracks. (just throwing more work at you Dan) Bill Lawry wrote:North Face, Sugarloaf: The ring piton on the crux pitch needs a good supplement. And I've heard from someone more experienced that the pair of pitons four or five pitches up are no good ... and folks may be using them to protect some of that famous run-out (I did). Maybe its time to consider doing something for them ... or decide the small crack should protect well enough (not sure) for the average person. Shillelagh, The Wedge: It has some old bolts/rivets on the crux pitch. To me, they looked obviously suspect and weren't needed with modern shoes & gear. I'd leave them as-is for the history. Again, let us know if you set up a fund.My 2 cents on Sugarloaf: Agree with replacing the old ring piton with a bolt, it's hard to backup, and the piton is of unknown quality. The two pitons down lower don't worry me nearly as much, one can see that they are not rusted out below the surface, and the climbing there is much easier. The old 1/4" bolt with aluminum hanger on the next pitch would be higher priority to me, even though the climbing is pretty easy there too (it's the 1st pro after a long run-out, and the climbing gets noticeably steeper just above). Also, except for maybe the ring piton, I would prioritize the bolts on left eyebrow above the NF route. |
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As far as I know using a power drill in the organs is not allowed, I would run this by someone who has been climbing in the area for a long time and I believe has done some developing in the organs, and see what they think such as John Hymer.... He is going to know more than anyone I know of about what's ok and not ok in the organs. I would ask him what he thinks before anyone. |
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Also I live in the area and if any help is needed let me know, I know a few people who would be willing to help in the area as well but as said before I think running it by a long time local Is a good idea. I could get in touch with john if needed... |
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Robert Cort wrote:The two pitons down lower don't worry me nearly as much, one can see that they are not rusted out below the surface, and the climbing there is much easier. The old 1/4" bolt with aluminum hanger on the next pitch would be higher priority to me, even though the climbing is pretty easy there too (it's the 1st pro after a long run-out, and the climbing gets noticeably steeper just above).I haven't seen the one with the aluminum hanger - haven't been that way. Robert Cort wrote:Also, except for maybe the ring piton, I would prioritize the bolts on left eyebrow above the NF route.Agreed. |
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Thanks again for all the input. Sounds like we have a good list to look into a pool of resources for the project. If anyone is in the area and wants to climb or work on re bolting, send me a message. |