Old BD 3.5 and 4 compare to the new C4 4

I have the old BD 3.5 and 4 and am thinking of replacing them with the lighter C4. I do not use this size cams often and would appreciate any comments on whether the new #4 replaces the old 3.5 and 4.

If you want to sell me the 3.5 I'll be glad to take it off your hands

Most of the time the new 4 will replace the old 3.5 and 4. Some of the time, it won't.

It has the same basic mid range. It is in the middle of those two though, so if you've got a crack that just barely takes one of the other sizes, you might find yourself overcammed or tipped out.

Most cracks outside of Indian Creek have more than enough variation to use the new size. And it is a lot lighter.

I only carry the old ones if I know I need to. As a functional piece of pro, the new one is better as long as it's the right size.

Locker wrote:"the new one is better as long as it's the right size." Uh... really? LOL!

Don't be intentionally dense. It is smoother, lighter, and has a thumb loop. It is a superior piece. It isn't the same size though, so it doesn't always go where the old one did.

This isn't stoner logic, as much as you'd like to make it.

Let me rephrase for nicelegs:

For the portion of the usable range for which the 3.5 and new #4 overlap, the #4 is superior due to its weight, thumb loop, and smooth action. The new #4 is slightly larger than the 3.5 and is smaller than the old #4...but you won't notice this much unless you're climbing desert splitters.

Sounds like Locker's hitting the glue pretty hard today.
I'm not a great climber, but I'm not completely hopeless, and I do own and have substantial experience with old 3.5 and 4 Camalots, and a new 4 C4.
niceleggs' take is 100% correct.
In my role as Captain Obvious, I'll see if I can straighten Locker out, mostly repeating what others have written, but maybe repetition will help.

The new #4 is between sizes of the old 3.5 and old 4. The overlap is substantial, so most of the time it is usable where either an old 3.5 or 4 would be, but not always.

Aside from the change in size, C4s have some incremental improvements over the previous generation of Camalots, and in that sense a new C4 is better than old 3.5 or 4. More generally, any C4 is a "better" cam than the last generation, but that may be sorta theoretical when comparing different sizes. Here, it's more than theoretical, as the sizes are very similar and substantially overlapping.

Edit--Ryan's post is fine, but I don't think nicelegs posts needed any rephrasing for the non-glue impaired.

I did a usable cam chart. The new #4 is about an old #3.75
The new #4 is terrible for The Grand Wall @ Squamish

Usable Range 5%-60%

No I mean Terrible. No matter how hard you try it will not fit and you kind of want it too at the end of the Sword pitch. Actually having an old#3.5 + new#4 + old#4 = good if doing an tight offwidth

Well if I was to go on a route that had a short offwidth I would likely take a new 4. Unless it specifically required a 3.5.

That said I'll bitch slap you with a #6 if you try to take it from me.
;-)

LOL
Yes lighter and way more stable in the crack because it's wider.

Locker wrote:But, but, but, ALL BD C4's are "BETTER" than the older version 3.5. No matter WHAT the situation. ;-)

Well, if you try to use the new ones to protect Carnivore in the Creek, yur gonna die.

For precisely this route, I hated the new one for many years. I went as far as to stockpile the old. Funny how things change when you realize you don't care about a particular route anymore.

To put this in a way that Locker would probably understand. Black Sabbath was really good, then Dio took over and they weren't as good. Or were they? Maybe they were better but should have changed their name, since they certainly were something far different from the original.

Somehow though, Ozzy managed to outlive Dio, who is likely cornholing Kurt Cobain right now, while making Anne Frank and Chris Farley watch.

Does that make more sense now?

Ozzy, Keith Richards and Iggy are all chemically preserved, they'll outlive a lot more of the young'uns.

The old Bd blacks are a great size, very usable in Jtree, the creek etc. I find the new Bd 4s to be a touch fanciful...I don't think you will regret keeping this cam around If you want to sell it though, PM me, I'll take it for sure.

Ryan Nevius wrote:Let me rephrase for nicelegs: For the portion of the usable range for which the 3.5 and new #4 overlap, the #4 is superior due to its weight, thumb loop, and smooth action. The new #4 is slightly larger than the 3.5 and is smaller than the old #4...but you won't notice this much unless you're climbing desert splitters.

I guess I would agree that the new 4 is superior in these ways...I own one of these cams myself and, yes, it is as creamy as this description implies. Yet, having placed both of these cams, I would first say that the black BD Camalot has, by reputation, performed so sweetly that the sale of such a device might actually be sacrilegious. Were the old Bd's so difficult without the perfect syringe grip? I personally like the old BD 3.5...a great cam all around! I spent a couple weeks in Jtree and it seemed we were always searching for the 3.5 at the belay...Good cam, good range...I don't thing you'll regret keeping it.

Thank you all for the replies. Looks like I will keep my 3.5 and get a new 4 when I have spare $.

Locker wrote:"Better" is what works when you need it.

Isn't that the same thing you gave nicelegs shit for up thread? ;-)

one nice thing about the older cams in general is that you could just resling it with cord easily, no need to send it off ... as many of them including the old friends, c4s, etc had the metal eye

ive never found the lack of a thumb loop an issue with my dragons/link cams, etc ...

as to "better" ... as long as the cam fits in the crack properly, i would suggest that if you have issues placing a fist->offwidth size old camalot because of the trigger action, thumb loop, etc .... you just need to step it up a bit

just woman up and go do it !!!

pamela pack placing old style purple camalot at crux

;)

From many years of personal experience, Locker and I have proven positively that older is ALWAYS better than newer.

Locker u should realy go climbing and get off of your Internet soap box.

Man you idiots can make even the simplest thread a worthless sprayfest. I'm feeling left out...

Whoever said something about a #4 on the Grand Wall: you do not need a #4 on the Grand Wall. New or old.

Ryan Nevius wrote:Let me rephrase for nicelegs: For the portion of the usable range for which the 3.5 and new #4 overlap, the #4 is superior due to its weight, thumb loop, and smooth action. The new #4 is slightly larger than the 3.5 and is smaller than the old #4...but you won't notice this much unless you're climbing desert splitters.

I'm probably a bit neurotic and alot OCD, but that 3.5 feels a heck of a lot better hanging off my harness than the new #4. Feels alot more than "slightly" bigger, but that of course is just opinion.

I'd say keep that 3.5. It's a great niche piece for if you want a larger cam on the climb without need a "big" cam. I have two!