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By noburu
From Flagstaff
Feb 2, 2012

Hey Kirra, can you let me know what this hearing ultimately will decide (just a quick comment). I have been up in Flag now and away from the crazy Oak Flats circus! Thanks to all of you out there keeping informed and helping this cause.


FLAG
By kirra
Feb 3, 2012

noburu- thank you for your continued interest wherever you roam. The outcome of this hearing will decide whether a vote will be taken (or not) at some later date
~---~---~---~---~~

my additional .02 ~
This is an important meeting where anyone (public) can be scheduled to express their views (testimony) before these selected committee members of Congress. The goal= try to persuade these folks to vote your way if and when they do vote. Once a vote is scheduled, NO additional comments are considered. At the House of Representatives a vote was recently taken and this bill passed (mostly due to a republican majority) If our Senate also takes a vote and it passes, this land exchange could then head to the president's desk to be signed

hopefully, proper time will be given to all sides of this important issue and not just those that have the $uperPACs working for them. Fly to D.C. and tell your story or send/fax a letter and ask that it be submitted as testimony and it will be as if you were there. Many thanks for your time & assistance


FLAG
By ClimbandMine
Feb 4, 2012

Curt Shannon wrote:
Here are a couple of links to the mining analysis mentioned above, comparing the economics of block cave mining to a hybrid stope and fill/room and pillar method. As I also mentioned before, the spreadsheet should probably be revised to reflect a more realistic price for copper. The copper price used in the original model was actually between $.75 and $1.00 per pound--even lower than what I stated above. And, as the report notes, the price sensitivity is around $100 million per year for each $.25/pound change in the price of copper. Since copper is currently $3.85/pound, this impact amounts to something like an additional $1.2 billion in profitability per year. As the RCM mine is projected to have a 50 or 60 year life, we're clearly talking about a substantial increase in profits--enough to even make the more expensive (and non-surface destructive) mining design highly profitable. mining model (posted with permission of the Access Fund) RCM will no doubt claim that this is false and that they must block cave this particular ore deposit, but that's only because congress (supposedly the stewards of our public lands) have thus far completely failed to hold RCM's feet to the fire on this issue and to require them to mine responsibly. Curt


Alright, now that I've actually had time to read the latest on this thread, I have to speak up.

I provided a three- or four-line basis for that spreadsheet model to Curt in 2004, prior to having any practical experience in block caving, and less than 2 years out of grad school. It was an extremely easy, high level analysis (not even close to what we use for a scoping-level study). I don't remember what point I was trying to prove - it was 2 states, 3 jobs, and 8 years ago.

My name appears on work justifying the economics of various mining methods. I did not do this work.

Neither David Chambers nor the Access Fund had permission to use my name on any work, NOR DID THEY SEEK THAT PERMISSION. They should know better, especially since David Chambers puts a PhD after his name. This is a severe violation of professional ethics.

He and the Access fund each owe me a case of beer.


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By ErikF
Feb 4, 2012

ClimbandMine wrote:
Alright, now that I've actually had time to read the latest on this thread, I have to speak up. I provided a three- or four-line basis for that spreadsheet model to Curt in 2004, prior to having any practical experience in block caving, and less than 2 years out of grad school. It was an extremely easy, high level analysis (not even close to what we use for a scoping-level study). I don't remember what point I was trying to prove - it was 2 states, 3 jobs, and 8 years ago. My name appears on work justifying the economics of various mining methods. I did not do this work. Neither David Chambers nor the Access Fund had permission to use my name on any work, NOR DID THEY SEEK THAT PERMISSION. They should know better, especially since David Chambers puts a PhD after his name. This is a severe violation of professional ethics. He and the Access fund each owe me a case of beer.


Thanks, ClimbandMine. Interesting background.


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By Curt Shannon
Feb 4, 2012

ClimbandMine wrote:
Alright, now that I've actually had time to read the latest on this thread, I have to speak up. I provided a three- or four-line basis for that spreadsheet model to Curt in 2004, prior to having any practical experience in block caving, and less than 2 years out of grad school. It was an extremely easy, high level analysis (not even close to what we use for a scoping-level study). I don't remember what point I was trying to prove - it was 2 states, 3 jobs, and 8 years ago. My name appears on work justifying the economics of various mining methods. I did not do this work. Neither David Chambers nor the Access Fund had permission to use my name on any work, NOR DID THEY SEEK THAT PERMISSION. They should know better, especially since David Chambers puts a PhD after his name. This is a severe violation of professional ethics. He and the Access fund each owe me a case of beer.


Actually ClimbandMine, you provided quite a bit more to us than that and up until a couple of days ago people could see exactly what you gave us, as the spreadsheet you provided us was included as a separate tab on Chamber's spreadsheet. Naturally they can no longer view that work of yours--as you insisted that we delete it from the post, which we did.

The spreadsheet that remains is entirely the work of Chambers and contains no content of yours. I do find it somewhat amusing that you now claim you were a mere "n00b" when you provided your inputs to us--because at the time you represented yourself as a mining engineer with direct expertise in block caving. In any event, there in no longer any reference to you in my above post.

Curt


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By Fred AmRhein
Feb 4, 2012

ClimbandMine wrote:
My name appears on work justifying the economics of various mining methods. I did not do this work.


Curt,

So, issue over. I guess you have to buy C&M a beer or two? That's a refreshing way to settle a disagreement with a fellow community member; even one that may not agree with you. Well done guys.

Also, it appears that the models remain intact and that C&M's contributions were tangential and inconsequential to the conclusions about the profitability of the concepts?

Lastly, has RCM, to your knowledge, ever produced a public document that shows that an alternative method would not work at Oak Flat? It's my understanding that they aggressively pursue the block cave paradigm, provide details about its implementation, but have not ever addressed or presented alternatives to the concerned public?

Thanks,

Fred


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By Lindajft
From maricopa, AZ
Feb 4, 2012
The loaf

Fred AmRhein wrote:
Admin: Can you help some of us understand what prompted you to add this? How'd this come to your attention? And, how do you know it was copied from elsewhere? What's going on in the background here? Please, no PM's. Thank you, Fred



I don't recall seeing a response on this. Please advise

Thanks


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By ClimbandMine
Feb 5, 2012

Curt Shannon wrote:
Actually ClimbandMine, you provided quite a bit more to us than that and up until a couple of days ago people could see exactly what you gave us, as the spreadsheet you provided us was included as a separate tab on Chamber's spreadsheet. Naturally they can no longer view that work of yours--as you insisted that we delete it from the post, which we did. The spreadsheet that remains is entirely the work of Chambers and contains no content of yours. I do find it somewhat amusing that you now claim you were a mere "n00b" when you provided your inputs to us--because at the time you represented yourself as a mining engineer with direct expertise in block caving. In any event, there in no longer any reference to you in my above post. Curt


Curt - I said Practical experience.

The point is that others used my name without my permission.

Thanks for removing it.


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By Curt Shannon
Feb 5, 2012

ErikF wrote:
Thanks, ClimbandMine. Interesting background.


Only if you're interested in negationism.

Curt


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By Curt Shannon
Feb 5, 2012

ClimbandMine wrote:
Curt - I said Practical experience. The point is that others used my name without my permission. Thanks for removing it.


No problem. The links were to documents that were primarily being used internally by the AF. We probably should have taken a closer look at the content before posting the public links.

Curt


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By Curt Shannon
Feb 5, 2012

kirra wrote:
Negationism: The denial of historic crimes. The word is derived from the French term négationnisme, which means Holocaust denial. Holocaust denial is illegal in France and several other countries.


Well, I simply employed "negationism" as the broader form of revisionist history that denies any well established fact.

Curt


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By Fred AmRhein
Feb 6, 2012

On the eve of the Senate hearing on legislation to privatize the protected 760 acre Oak Flat Camp Ground and an additional ~3 square miles of federal forest lands in order to mine at 7,000' below the surface in an environment that has been reported to be at 175 defF, an article about Rio Tinto's continuing efforts to automate many aspects of the mining process and operate things remotely. (Rio Tinto is the majority owner of Resolution Copper Mining, RCM, the Superior, Az based mining company pursuing the ownership of the Oak Flat lands)

An excerpt:

"Our industry is facing maturing orebodies, fewer tier-one deposits, increasingly complex geographies and labour shortages and the report details how innovation in autonomous technologies can play an important role in addressing these challenges,” said Rio’s head of innovation, John McGagh

He noted that the technologies currently being tested cemented Rio’s position in the field of mining innovation.

“In iron-ore, we are introducing automated trucks, blast-hole drill rigs, sorting machines and trains, all of which are capable of being controlled by our operations center in Perth, which already integrates our port, rail and mine logistics,” said McGagh


Note: Perth, where the operations center is located, is hundreds of miles to the south from the actual iron-ore mines in the Pilbara, Northwest Australia.

Here's the entire article: Rio Tinto says mine automation benefits outweigh costs


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By Lindajft
From maricopa, AZ
Feb 7, 2012
The loaf

Fred AmRhein wrote:
“In iron-ore, we are introducing automated trucks, blast-hole drill rigs, sorting machines and trains, all of which are capable of being controlled by our operations center in Perth, which already integrates our port, rail and mine logistics,” said McGagh Here's the entire article: Rio Tinto says mine automation benefits outweigh costs



So much for Jobs for AZ, eh? We already have known this tho'.

Fred, when I click on that link, the article doesn't come up, only the page to Mining Weekly.


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By Lindajft
From maricopa, AZ
Feb 7, 2012
The loaf

BTW

NO SUBSIDENCE!!!!


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By Fred AmRhein
Feb 7, 2012

Lindajft wrote:
So much for Jobs for AZ, eh? We already have known this tho'. Fred, when I click on that link, the article doesn't come up, only the page to Mining Weekly.


Linda,

It seems to work ok for me but I have to open it in a new window? Anybody else have trouble with it?

I guess the point here for many in the very local community (Superior, etc.) would be that it appears that the future of many mining activities looks to be automated processes.

That's not all bad, there will be some jobs locally, but perhaps many of the higher tech jobs like remote operators, programmers, etc., will be located outside of the local rural area, Phoenix? LA? Certainly there is no certainty as to what jobs will materialize nor what community/region they would benefit if they do.

If you'll recall, there were amendments offered to the House Bill by Rep. Raul Grijalva to make sure that the jobs that Rio/RCM was projecting/promising would be located in the vicinity. This amendment was rejected by the majority in power in the House.

That's some interesting background.

Fred


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By Fred AmRhein
Feb 29, 2012

More discussion about automated mining by Rio Tinto (Superior, Az's Resolution Copper's majority partner)

Resolution and their operations are discussed here:

Automated Mining by Rio Tinto in Australia and the US

An excerpt:

"Opponents of proposed new Rio Tinto projects in the United States think the “Mine of the Future” project means locals should not believe promises of well-paying jobs. In Superior, Ariz., where Rio Tinto is trying to open a massive new copper mine, during a reporting trip last fall many local residents pointed to company materials touting the Mine of the Future and said they feared that robots, not humans, would be doing many of the jobs if the mine opens.


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By Ball
From Oakridge, OR
Feb 29, 2012
Sam Perkins; Ground-up FA; named because it's big and smooth

Jobs aka crumbs.

If this deal is going to happen, the only half-way legit way would be an auction with the proceeds being used for restoration (funds kept as copper since the dollar is going to be toast).

The jobs won't last and you'll be left with a dry, sunken hole with no way to repair it.

/cap'n obvious


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By Fred AmRhein
Mar 28, 2012

Oak Flat is warming up so people are gearing up to head elsewhere. Meantime, the topic of the Oak Flat Land Exchange continues to get more discussion and media coverage.

Here's a link to an episode of The Lou Show on UStream where Roy Chavez, the Chair of the Concerned Citizens and Retired Miners of Superior offers a fairly comprehensive view of history, economic and environmental impact, and recent developments related to the proposed privatization of the Federally protected Oak Flat Campground and surrounding Federal lands.

www.ustream.tv/recorded/21365941/highlight/251676

An interesting bit of information:

According to Mr. Chavez, Rio Tinto/Resolution is in the process of attempting to privatize State Trust Land between the bend of US 60 at Florence Junction and the top of the road at Gonzalez Pass (the hill you come to the top of before Superior as you head out from Phoenix).

Evidently Rio/Resolution wants to use this area of relatively pristine upper Sonoran Desert lands for millions/billions of tons of waste rock and process byproduct.

As I recall, the Superstition Vistas development will be right next door and that projected development over the next few generations anticipates about 1,000,000 new residents. I wonder how they'll keep all that pulverized dust from blowing over the new homes in the summer dust storms? Just one question about the quality of life that this proposed project may lead to for the Valley.

Roy, a former Mayor and Miner in Superior, has quite a bit of good info.

Hope it helps.

Fred


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By Lindajft
From maricopa, AZ
Apr 22, 2012
The loaf

Anyone attend the gathering out at Oak Flats this weekend?


If so, how was it?


Linda


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By Curt Shannon
Apr 22, 2012

Yes, I attended the "Save Oak Flat" picnic at the campground yesterday. It was a nice turnout of the Concerned Citizens, Retired Miners, Concerned Climbers and AZ Mining Reform groups--plus some folks who just happened to be out there and dropped by to sign the petition to save Oak Flat.

Curt


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By Fred AmRhein
Apr 24, 2012

The land exchange issue continues to get press; sometimes in oblique ways.

Here's a link to a recent article by the National Journal, Flake’s Past as Lobbyist at Odds With His Image

The issue of Rio Tinto's interest in the uranium mining operation (for which Az Representative Jeff Flake, R-Az, Az's 6th Congressional District advocated as a Washington-based lobbyist in the 90's) came up in the Senate land exchange hearing earlier this year.

A notable excerpt from the NJ article: "When asked this week about having worked for a company partially owned by Iran, Flake said, “I didn’t know it at the time, so I don’t know how I could have thoughts on it now.”

And in response to criticism about his past "Washington insider" lobbying efforts from his rival for retiring Sen. Jon Kyl's Senate seat, Rep. Flake responds that "That dog don't hunt."

Hope it helps.

Fred


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By Lindajft
From maricopa, AZ
Apr 24, 2012
The loaf

kirra wrote:
hi Curt- Would this be a (new)different petition then what had circulated recently on AzMiningReform ? do you need more signatures (i want 2sign) -is there an online link? happy earth day... save the earth- Save Oak Flat !!!




Same one Kirra


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By Curt Shannon
Apr 25, 2012

kirra wrote:
hi Curt- Would this be a (new)different petition then what had circulated recently on AzMiningReform ? do you need more signatures (i want 2sign) -is there an online link? happy earth day... save the earth- Save Oak Flat !!!


Kirra, thanks. The petition is one and the same.

Curt


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By Curt Shannon
Apr 25, 2012

Here's another somewhat relevant item...

www.accessfund.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=tmL5KhNWL>>>

Curt


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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Apr 25, 2012
tanuki

Curt,

I am a little confused. The QCC is now a 501c3 and in active negotiations with RCM according to their Facebook page. The Access Fund is fighting against the Oak Flat Land Exchange Bill. Does this mean that we still have two groups representing climbers that are pursuing two opposing and mutually exclusive paths? Any light you (or anyone else) could shed on this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!


FLAG


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