Man I had no idea so many climbers were pissy! What can I say...

If someone leaves anything behind, its mine. I will not clip left behind hanging draws I will take them and assume they were left behind because they were not wanted. How many of these posts do we have to see before people wise up. But then again keep it up, and thanks for the free gear.

If I ever caught anyone booting my gear it would be all I could do to keep from hanging them from their own rope, and shoving a stick-clip up their ass! Seriously can someone not work on a project and leave their gear without having to worry about some dumbass taking it. Everyone always says..."oh I thought someone left it and didn't want it". That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. No one in their right mind would not want their hard-earned gear. You people are stupid and if I ever catch you gear thieves in Utah, I'll bolt a route on your forehead!

Justin sorry about your draws and I hope they weren't too expensive. Maybe Darren can give you a good deal on new ones. Someone needs to invent bait-draws.

If the route isn't so steep that cleaning the draws doesn't require seconding, then clean 'em before you leave. Its easy to set them back up with the stick clip/bolt to bolt/aid trick.

It would also be worthwhile to set up a sting. Sure it means wasting a few days but catching the vermin red-handed would be worth it. Now I'm starting to picture a couple of skinny-ass sport climbers throwing down; thats an amusing mental picture.

Mike wrote: "Now I'm starting to picture a couple of skinny-ass sport climbers throwing down; thats an amusing mental picture.
Yeah, you gotta admit that the featherwight division is fun to watch. Those guys do have speed working for them.

For some reason certain climbers feel that by leaving draws on a climb this gives them a sense of ownership of that climb. Clean up after yourself or find yourself short some gear. Why anyone would leave behind, in some cases hundreds of dollars in gear is beyond me. I will continue to teach people lessons until they learn. And I love the idea of a sting, I can picture it now a group of girlfriend/wife-less sport climbers wasting days on end waiting for someone to show up and clean these abandoned draws just so they can confront that person. Brilliant!

I've never taken anyones draws off, or ever plan to. but i always get a little annoyed when people leave them up on routes. the biggest reason is that they are an eyesore, i'm guessing most hikers that pass through areas we climb would agree with that. even in most remote areas, if the draws are up more than a few days people are going to see them, especially in wasatch mtns.

Hey Justin,
lets soak some draws in gas and then hang them on your route. Anybody steals those and they will be sorry. Better yet lets put up a decoy route with fake bolt hangars glued to the wall. Go clip up that route. Climb at your own risk.

To add to what Paul Stoner (sweet last name) is saying; Most times cliffs are shut down or closed it is because land managers SEE traces of humans that were left behind(intentionally or not). One of the biggest threats to access is when a ranger sees evidence of climbers leaving their sh1t behind. Leaving draws on a project is no different than leaving crashpads under boulders at rocky mnt NP or at mt Evans (both threaten access to these places in the front range). Not that I agree with land managers, but they are one ones making and enforcing the rules. One of the things front rangers have done to show land managers that we do actually care and can manage ourselves, is to remove those items left behind and to post on-line that we have their sh1t. If accurately identified, the sh1t is returned to the owner with a polite explanation that their laziness is going to ruin it for all of us that enjoy these resources. I'm NOT advocating stealing the draws, just removing them and returning them to the owner in order to keep access open. Besides, any (sport) climb can be fully equipped with a stick clip at any time.
PS How many trad climbers out there leave their cams in their sick project (for longer than 1 day) for pink-pointing?

ahem..

Trad climbers don't know what a pink point is.

You either climbed it or aided it.

PT

Top 10 Reason why not to leave gear on projects

10. Considered an eye sore by others (Leave no Trace or as little as possible).

9. Someone will take them.

8. Someone else do the project route before you.

7. Some dumb shit will take them.

6. The climbing community is no long a community.

5. Some fucking dumb shit will take them.

4. It may take so long for you to do the route, the draw will rot

3. Some stupid fucking dumb shit will take them.

2. Leaving draws on a route is like a dog pissing on a pole. It may mark your spot but it does not prevent another from coming a long and pissing again and taking your mark.

1. We will not have to put up with yet another someone stole my draws thread.

"dumb shits" leave behind expensive gear, just so they can pink point a route. It would make more sense to top rope a route while working it and then try to red point it. Or is it cooler to tell people "those are my draws up there, I'm working it".

No dumb shits steal the draws of a guy wasting his money and time on a bunch of people who never give back to the climbing community. How dare you put up a new route Justin.

If you leave your "project draws" in vegas or alaska i will gladly take them, and tell you it was me.. so you could meet the guy who took your draws.

I may be feeding the troll, but...

This happened in rock canyon. Here we have a community, and Justin was posting to this community about something that happened in rock canyon. Notice that most of the people who climb in rock canyon respect the property of others and view the taking of fixed draws with scorn. Those who are 'fanning the flames' so to speak are not from this area, or even Utah.

To those of you who continue to post about taking fixed draws: that is not the established ethic here. Just as adding a bolt to Dark Horse in LLC would be Wrong, so is taking fixed draws in rock canyon or AF. If you don't like the ethics, the you don't have to climb there. I certainly won't leave fixed draws on any projects I have in Colorado, Vegas, or Alaska, as the ethic in those places allows for the removal of such gear.

Lets play nice, eh?

Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm from Utah and my community ethics tell me that I do not like to clip existing draws, they are an eyesore, and people who leave behind expensive gear are begging to have it taken. Sorry next time I come across this type of situation I will simply remove the draws and throw them in the bushes somewhere near the climb, in this manner it's not stealing, it's cleaning up after thoughtless climbers. Although throwing draws in the bushes is also littering, I take all that back then, I will clean up the garbage by liberating the draws from the wall.

Even better idea: JUST LEAVE IT ALONE!!! Use the gear, but just leave it.
If this John guy is as big of an idiot/thief as he sounds...perhaps we should post his picture and ask all the climbing shops in Utah to not sell to him.
You on board Adam?

If you don't want your shit stolen don't leave it out. Rock Canyon is a public place and like it or not people are going to take stuff that is left out. Climbing gear is expensive and I for one would not leave anything that I didn't absolutely need to leave. Would you leave your skis out or your Mt bike? I don't think so. The climbing "community" is not as tight and morally perfect as you might like to think. So again, if want to keep it, take it with you.

So to recap:
"Don't take my stuff!"
"I'll take it if I want!"
"Leave my stuff alone because it doesn't belong to you...remember the golden rule?"
"I'll take your stuff because my life is so meaningless I have to 'teach people lessons'"
Is that about right?

Its funny how John Shaw joined mountain project just to post on this thread.

Maybe a thief trying to make justice out of wrong doing? You bet. Your sound like that mystery person that nobody likes in rock canyon.

John..have you heard of rockclimbing.com. Join. You don't belong on this site.