I need to correct some misinformation in my previous post.

I suggested that Tyson was responsible for installing bolted anchors on Olympus for commercial purposes. That was completely incorrect. My apologizes to Tyson and Exum.

Lance

I am in Nepal working in health care at the moment, so that is why I am not back home bolting next to cracks....no seriously, though, If a wall like the Geezer Wall was here (where so many Nepalis I have met are so eager to learn how to rock climb!), they would worship it and probably literally wear it out it would get so much traffic. There would be a shrine around it at the entrance of the rocks, for sure.

Yes, you counter, "but this is the Wasatch and not Nepal", and that is correct and true....but which climbers exactly was the Geezer Wall denying future climbers of climbing it traditionally? Who was it intended for? I hadn't climbed there...neither had any of you apparently, who condone the elimination of it. Doesn't sound to me like anyone, but the newbies who were climbing there, going to climb there, and were seemingly enjoying it to its ultimate potential...were the ones enjoying it. And just because a gym climber moves outside, he can't climb bolted routes? Some of the ever popular Gregorio routes might have been available, but most are harder than 5.8/9. Why couldn't this wall be left for them?

Yes, yes to address the other issues...we did climb the Black Streak without bolts (well, we did hand drill one 1/4"er and broke the bit and zig zagged all over hell (excuse the pun) trying to place any gear)...and it didn't get one (NOT ONE!) repeat for 10+ years until bolts were installed. In Jordan, my late friend Res looked at me after we climbed a mega classic wall and said, "I don't know anyone but you who carries a #4 or bigger Camalot on his rack, let's climb it again and bolt it...We climbed it again and equipped it. And repeated it later with other friends. It is so good, so fun, but it does have some OW (now bolt protected! I am embarrassed and not too proud to say). So yes, these are in both cases these "convenient bolts" you guys seem to like to diss or chop, but hey, I tend to think that 99.9% of all of you 5.11 or harder climbers out there in the Great State of Utah have clipped quite a few bolts in your day...and if you are from the UK, you probably migrated to the USA for that very purpose.

I mean, really what is the big deal about this
GeezerWall? Many recent bolted Wasatch routes are bolted not the way I would choose to equip a rock climb, some of the bolts are in inappropriate spots, some are just wrong in every way, but I respect the style chosen by the FA team...despite how much I may dislike/disapprove of the style or the climb. None of you hardmen would have climbed there anyway, so what exactly is the big deal here?

Again, it would have been appreciated here in Nepal's Himalaya. Sounds to me like it would have been appreciated by a lot of people there in the Wasatch, too.

ddriver- I wasn't suggesting you didn't know about the Euro stone (it did come across that way though, my bad) saw some of yer pix on the "other" site awhile ago. Good shizz. I was just pointing out that sure they are placing gear in limestone, but that doesn't mean it is good gear. Using a sport area that you literally can't see most of the pockets until you bash away some layers as an example was weird IMO. Anyway have fun on the kitty litter, I'll stick to the granite...har-har

Cheers
TP

edited:

May be worth pointing out that only one or two people in this thread have come out and supported the actions of the Geezer Wall chopper. No matter what people's feelings are about bolting cracks and protectable features, I don't think very many are happy about the chopping no matter if it was some highly motivated idealist or just a random thief.

I tend to think of ethics as a set of general principles from which one can gain perspective to make decisions, not as a set of ideals to follow blindly.

Maybe this thread is kind of going in circles because the developers have stated that the crag was a community service and not to pad their own personal egos, and also have solicited our opinions about it. This may or may not be the case with some of the other routes around with bolted protectable features, which could have been put up by people who care less about the community. So if developers do care about the community as a whole, the area's ethics are the best guidelines to making the most people happy, I'd say.

There are a lot of areas where I would be really sad to see grid bolting and bolts where there is obviously good gear. I admit that my possibly somewhat skewed perspective about the lack of bolted cracks (bolted anchors were a separate issue in my mind) in the Wasatch probably comes from where I've chosen to climb... some areas I tend to stay away from.

The opinion that there are too many unneeded bolts going in here is definitely not the same opinion as that all bolted routes with good gear here should be chopped. It is perfectly legit to ask developers to have a little more discretion. I hope that something like the Geezer Wall chopping never happens again, no matter what my opinion is about the bolting of it.

kik,
Thoughtful post,Thanks.

This is probably all my fault. I moved here from CA a few years back. I remember the halcyon days of Utah, back in the early 90s, when my buddy and I were crashing on Jimmy Dean's floor nightly while getting thrashed daily testing those beautiful bolt placements in AF that we could only dream of in Cali. I recall one ethical debate that raged between lyrca-clad hardmen chowing down on boiled potatos and rice cakes about the judgement of someone using sika in the Hell Cave on a Friday when it wasn't clear whether or not it'd be fully dry by the week-end. My partner, who'd already shocked the locals by consuming saturated fat and beer voluntarily and without puking, was completely beside himself. As part of CA's fledgling sport climbing movement we were subject to death threats, theft, and "open letters to the editor" about our nefarious actions, even though they were taking place on rock so chossy that our predicessors were drilling 3/8X3" bolts and calling it A5. At one point he finally blurted out, "in California, you couldn't put this many climbers in the same room without a fight breaking out. Here the only ethical dilemma is when does the glue dry?".

Certainly, before my arrival, such passion over bolting an up-until-now ignored choss pile would only have happened in the Golden State. I moved here to escape persecution, even though it appears as though my side was finally gaining the upper hand, which wasn't necessarily a good thing. Regardless, I came with my rack and left my drill. Unfortunately, it appears that mixed up coastal karma has wafted east in my wake.

My condolences.

• Cranial Prophylactic The protection bolt at the start of the climb. There is a perfect nut placement there.

• The Hook The last protection bolt from The Hook Variation certainly takes some of the spice out of this climb. I have mixed feelings about this one. Also, the bolted anchors both at the top and bottom of this climb are purely for convenience. I have mixed feelings about this also. This is one of my favorite places to go and do laps and be able to rap off when I'm done, but I don't know if that is enough to justify the convenience anchors.

• Chickenhead Holiday Sure this is just a so-so 5.6, but it has historical significance! And now there is supposedly a bolted rap station at the end of the first pitch (actually, I think it is about 3/4 of the way up the first pitch).

• Barefoot in Barbados I think the Ruckmans originally climbed this without any bolts. The 2nd bolt is the most ridiculous, followed by the 3rd.

• Narcolepsy This would be very sad.

• Inner Light So would this.

Bobby:

Here are a few more:

Dorsal Fin...bolts removed
Fin Arete
Crescent Crack
Tingeys Terror
Pentapitch
Endless Torment
Nuptual Vow

Firstly, I don't know that we should start on rap anchors, because I feel like that's a different discussion entirely.

Also Bobby: I am curious about not putting extra bolts in Narcolepsy. I'm not saying that it should be done, but I would love to hear your reasoning behind not putting more in. I've only been climbing a few years and am just starting to trad climb, so I have pretty limited knowledge on this sort of thing. Is the reason you wouldn't have extra added to Narcolepsy because it could be protected? I haven't been there for a long time, and haven't really looked at it for gear placement. I don't remember any, but what do i know?

If you can't put gear in, then why is it good to have the bolting the way that it is? I am generally not interested in over bolting things or bolting climbs that could be gear protected, but I am not interested in bolting that involves climbing half the route before you get your first bolt, and then having the second and only other bolt so high that you would likely deck on the way to it were you to fall. Big falls definitly keep the climbing interesting, but the risk of hitting the ground takes it into a different realm entirely- at least to me (excluding the constant risk of decking for other reasons like a poor knot, gear failure, human error, etc). Even as a climber that doesn't find the easy routes at this wall challenging at all anymore, I am not interested in leading them because I am not interested in taking a ground fall.

Please enlighten me, since I am clearly in the dark! Thanks

Hey STH, show me a popular route, sport or trad, where the chalk is ever washed off. Even if it does get washed off two weekends later the route is covered with chalk again.

But let me get this straight, in your mind a well camouflaged bolt, that I have to study the route to even find, is more of a problem for you than a line of over chalked holds from top to bottom?

So it's not the actual visual look of the route that gets you so upset but the fact that somewhere on the route is an evil piece of fixed pro. Even if we can't readily see the offending fixed gear from the ground. Your logic...is not logical.

BTW, when I remove bolts I fill the holes with silicon and splatter some rock dust into the silicon. I defy you to find the old holes when I remove a bolt.

However the chalk is still there next to the now invisible bolt hole.

You're right you do sound like a real A - hole. I can't argue your logic on that point.

I'm not advocating across-the-board removal of all rap anchors. I just think some are unnecessary, and I worry about the drift. Specifically, I foresee them cropping up on Schoolroom, Steorts' Ridge, Outside Corner, etc.

Even The West Slabs now has convenience anchors on it. It is sad.