New route on Halfdome
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check it out here: |
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Well, that didn't take long to appear - so was it ground up or rap bolted? |
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very funny... |
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Glad to hear it, you should post it up on SuperTopo... |
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I put some photos and a TR on the Hoofer website |
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This climb looks awesome! Thanks for putting it up. I can't wait to get up there and try it. |
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i wouldn't say any of the runouts FEEL insane. on the crux pitches (two and three) you'll definitely feel some air below you when you're doing the harder moves, but as the topo shows, you're never unprotected. |
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androo.daveass wrote:very funny... all hand drilled on lead :)Actually, this conflicts with Doug's report on hoofermountaineering.org where he says, "As they were coming down in the evening, they realized that the run-out on pitch two was beyond anything they would want to do again, so they added one bolt on their way down." It appears that the route was retrobolted on rap before the FA was even complete! |
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Hi, Larry! Isn't it great fun trying to fit square pegs in round holes? That's why we carry hammers .... |
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Doug-- I'm not trying to give you guys a hard time. It looks like a good route, climbed in good style. But this is an interesting issue. I guess the soul-searching question is, "Why put in the extra bolt? If the lead was too scary to repeat, why not just leave a fixed rope for the next day?" Doug Hemken wrote:... Although we did talk about "Growing Up" quite a bit as we were hiking and sitting around in camp, our route is NOT a statement written in stone, as far as I'm concerned.On the contrary--ALL routes are some kind of statement, and when a drill is used, they are literally written in stone. |
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I know you're not giving us hard time. |
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my comment about the added bolt can be found here: mountainproject.com/v/calif… |
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Andrew, I think your reading a bit too much into Larry's post. Presently and historically, he is not the internet personality that you identify others with in your subsequent post. Amongst the 1000s of users to MP.com he is of but a few that understand the complexity and commitment to climbing/installing a new route, and I think he was just posing a question. Noone thinks your overbolting, or is questioning your climbing prowess. Sometimes we loose a bit of humanity in the whole internet thing, so try not to worry! |
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Well then Larry shouldn't end his questions with exclamation points! |
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Gee-- everybody (except Adam) is reading this the wrong way. Let me say it again so you guys are clear on this. Larry DeAngelo wrote:...It looks like a good route, climbed in good style....I'm highly impressed with your style; that sounds like a dramatically bold lead. So much so that, even watered down to the existing 5.11R, the route is so far beyond me that I couldn't get up it with aid slings and a stick clip. I hope you will accept my apologies. That being said, I still have reservations about the concept of avoiding the creation of "a route that was 'too bold' for anyone else." I recognize that this is a popular rationale these days, and I probably represent a minority view. A large part of climbing is about challenge; you guys faced it and prevailed. The challenge for followers is already less: they know the route goes, and the bolts are there so they have something to go for. As a young climber I drew a lot of inspiration from standing on some granite ripple, searching for a hopelessly distant bolt, and realizing that Kamps or Higgins had launched into the blankness with no promise of an easy clip. I cherish those moments when I experienced a glimpse of their boldness and mastery. Sometimes I swallowed hard and retreated, but I am still glad they did not try to make their routes more "accessible" to me. My own new route efforts pale in comparison with Kamps & Higgins, and Blond Ike. On one occasion I gave (tacit) approval to the adding of a bolt to one of my routes. I was seduced by the argument that it would make the route popular among those unwilling to deal with the route in its original state. But of course the route I climbed was not popular: it was gone. |
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Bob D'Antonio wrote:... Everybody is critic after the fact...I've got to disagree on this: I don't see any criticism of the route, not even from me. And as far as the conceptual discussion goes, I don't see it as "after the fact." It is before the NEXT fact. These days you can't hardly turn around without tripping over some climber extolling the virtues of bolting. Many contemporary climbers are so inured to the things that they can't envision climbing without them. This is implicit in Andy's statement that he placed the bolt as a courtesy to other climbers and to enhance their enjoyment of the route. Fair enough, and as you say, even pretty reasonable. "Public service" can be pretty tempting. Maybe I'm wrong, but I will guess that Andy and Randy placed that bolt without hearing any impassioned pleas to leave it as a testimonial to their boldness, skill, and coolness under pressure. So, in case it is worth anything, this is my plea. |
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Interesting discussion. My question for Larry implies no criticism for his raising these issues. Larry, it's a climbable line--and looks like a very high quality one--on prize, limited real estate that the first ascentionists don't own. They're strong climbers, under control on enormous runouts on hard 5.11 climbing. Wouldn't your philosophy render the route not just a monument, but a fatally barbed wire fence, excluding the vast majority of climbers from some of the most admired rock on earth--in a National Park no less? Is the FA's prerogative so sweeping? Is that kind of consequence a legitimate consideration, as the FAers themselves decided it was? |
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These guys decided that one section was stupidly run out and added a bolt to make it more like the rest of a long climb. Sounds like they are pretty thoughtful about what they are creating. Larry DeAngelo wrote:I was seduced by the argument that it would make the route popular among those unwilling to deal with the route in its original state. But of course the route I climbed was not popular: it was gone. The minute you did the FA the route you did was gone Larry. Just the knowledge it could be climbed makes it a less adventurous experience for the next party. If those guys had done every pitch with a sick run out section and they wanted to play the courage card it looks like they could have but they didn't. Maybe next time they will. |
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thanks for the support tim! i hope you had a great time on Snake Dike that day, and hopefully in the future you'll make the hike back up to Halfdome to give 'Blond Ike' a try. |
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oh, and i hope that anyone considering the route isn't deterred by the runouts on pitches 5 and 6. after the crux pitches you'll be so at ease on the low-angle, easy terrain that you won't even notice you haven't been clipping any more bolts :) |
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I think it is ridiculous to tell a first ascent party they should not add bolts to their own line after leading it ground up. Basically they are painting a picture for any future ascents and if they choose to add a brush stroke why is this less worthy? When going into the unknown there are plenty of times you have the decision to either bail or go for it, as bolting (especially with a hand drill) is not always an option. They went for it....risking their necks for their vision. Now the choice is to leave the route as is to have a second ascent in 10-20 years ( AKA Southern Belle) or add a bolt to make it sane for others to lead. When you look at the big picture is a single bolt going to change much? The line has been drawn, the climb done in an awesome style. Why should we deride their effort in any way. |