By Marc H
From Lafayette, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Ken Cangi wrote: I am not saying that some women don't try to change their mates, just as I would never say that men never do. It is not a he or she trait.
I disagree--to an extent.
I would say that it's much more prevalent from the female gender. A man is more likely to just leave a woman that's he's not happy with; a woman is more likely to try to 'work on the relationship,' IME. I wouldn't say that one is necessarily better than the other, but I recognize a difference in methods.
I haven't 'studied' gender differences, but I agree with Tony that there are distinct characteristics of the two genders. Of course that doesn't mean that everyone fits within one definition, and there is a minority of people--both men and women--out there who break gender characteristics (some with the intention of doing nothing but, for some it occurs incidentally).
--Marc | 
FLAG |
By KCP
From Eldorado Springs, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: A man is more likely to just leave a woman that's he's not happy with; a woman is more likely to try to 'work on the relationship,' IME.
I think you are confusing women trying to change men with women being more willing to work at a relationship. They are not the same. Any relationship worth its salt has been through many trials and tribulations, and a few outright wars. The problem with too many people is that they have been weened on instant gratification, and when things don't immediately go their way, they quit and move on.
Betsy and I didn't start out at this point. In fact, we have probably worked through more than most are willing to, but it was worth every battle scar now to get to where we are now in our relationship. Not only is she still my lover, and climbing partner, but she has become my best friend. You'll never know the elation of winning or finishing a marathon if you aren't willing to hit the wall several times along the way. |
FLAG |
By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Ken Cangi wrote: I did not put words in your mouth.
Quoth Tony:
"Men get married thinking she WON'T change. Women get married thinking that he WILL change. The problem with this is that both are wrong."
Quoth Ken:
"And about the women-always-want-to-change-men comment..."
Find the word 'always' in your post. Then find it in mine. Hint- the latter won't happen. |
FLAG |
By KCP
From Eldorado Springs, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Tony Bubb wrote: Then quit talking.
That seems to be the prevailing tactic around here - just bully the the person with and opposing viewpoint or opinion until he or she shuts up or goes away.
Tony Bubb wrote: Find the word 'always' in your post. Then find it in mine. Hint- the latter won't happen. Quoth Tony: "Men get married thinking she WON'T change. Women get married thinking that he WILL change. The problem with this is that both are wrong." Quoth Ken: "And about the women-always-want-to-change-men comment..."
I was paraphrasing you, Tony, and the word: always doesn't change the patronizing tone of your statement. |
FLAG |
By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Ken Cangi wrote: That seems to be the prevailing tactic around here - just bully the the person with and opposing viewpoint or opinion until he or she shuts up or goes away.
Bully? Am I a bully for pointing out that you are doing what you are accusing me of?
I'm only arguing with one person here. You?
OK, fine, something constructive. Ken, rather than point out individual things like divorce stats, which you will simply attack and accuse me of making up, go find and watch a great series from the BBC called "Secrets Of the Sexes." Or read and research by Buss or anyone that references him (he was a leader in the field).
Or pick up a book called 'Alchemy of Love and Lust' by Theresa Crenshaw and read about hormonal influences on brain activity and development. I think it might have been Desmond Morris who wrote 'A Zoologist's Study of Human Intimacy' and 'Between the Sexes' so maybe go look those up.
Go listen to the leading experts in the field instead of me. After all, we all KNOW there is no difference in genders. Not physically, neurologically, nor behaviorally. That would be patronizing. Too bad that the 'common knowledge' of the marriage counceling world (female dominated) tends to be just what I said. |
FLAG |
By KCP
From Eldorado Springs, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Tony Bubb wrote: Bully? Am I a bully for pointing out that you are doing what you are accusing me of? I'm only arguing with one person here. You? OK, fine, something constructive. Ken, rather than point out individual things like divorce stats, which you will simply attack and accuse me of making up, go find and watch a great series from the BBC called "Secrets Of the Sexes." Or read and research by Buss or anyone that references him (he was a leader in the field). Or pick up a book called 'Legacy of Love and Lust' by Krenshaw and read about hormonal influences on brain activity and development. Go listen to the leading experts in the field instead of me. After all, we all KNOW there is no difference in genders. Not physically, neurologically, nor behaviorally.
More paper tigers.
State one reference from a noted expert in the field, preferably a female, which states that women try to change men because of a genetic propensity to do so. |
FLAG |
By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Ken Cangi wrote: More paper tigers. State one reference from a noted expert in the field, preferably a female, which states that women try to change men because of a genetic propensity to do so.
The other guys were right. Facts are not facts to you. They are just flexible things that bend to your will. You can make them not true but just declaring them 'Paper Tigers.'
And who cares if it is genetic or socialized? You foiseted that upon me too.
But, it is a fact that Men are higher in Vasopressen and lower in Progesterone, which tends to make them more present in the here and now of a situation and less likely to be emotionally driven by what should be.
- ***Theresa**** Crenshaw's book 'The Alchemy of Love and Lust' has a chapter on each hormone's influences and the gender differences caused by them. Go read it.
She is a woman and the chief scientist at the Crenshaw clinic for Hormone research. But why does it have to be from a woman? Are you saying there is a differrence between the sexes? Sexist pig! |
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By KCP
From Eldorado Springs, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Tony Bubb wrote: Men are higher in Vasopressen and lower in progesterone, which tends to make them more present in the hear and now of a situation and less likely to be emotionally driven by what should be. Theresa Krenshaw's book 'The Alchemy of Love and Lust' has a chapter on each hormone's influences and the gender differences caused by them. Go read it. The other guys were right. Facts are not facts to you. They are just flexible things that bend to your will. But why does it have to be from a woman? Are you saying there is a differrence between the sexes? You sexist pig!
Are you going to answer my specific question, or would you rather continue trying to wow me with your Goggle skills.
I'll wait. |
FLAG |
By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Ken Cangi wrote: Are you going to answer my specific question, or would you rather continue trying to wow me with your Goggle skills. I'll wait.
You are a peice of work. If you want the books, I'll drop them off at your house. I have them, I've read them, and it's your turn.
Google my ass, OK? The last time I had to google the stuff when when I was writing a pre-experimental reseach paper on it at Purdue University with my advisor, Doctor ***Denise*** Driscoll. My research was on mitigation of performance and memory decriments in gender salient situations. You might even find my paper! |
FLAG |
By Leo Paik
Administrator
From Westminster, Colorado
Jan 9, 2008
| As a husband of 15+ yrs of marriage & ~20 yrs of relationship to the same woman, I think it can work out with a non-climbing spouse. To her credit, my wife tried climbing >70 X but didn't find it rewarding enough. Probably the keys for us are immense respect for your spouse and believing in giving more than taking. It helps to also feel you're the lucky one in the relationship (I am). We climbers tend to be a fairly self-centered bunch, so learning to balance things in life can be challenging. Giving veto power (or consent) on climbing days helps to empower your spouse. Trying to fit in climbing around work, spouse, & family priorities helps, too. An important part of a good relationship is the ability to find joy in having your spouse do the things that inspire her/him. According to my wife, "in the end, you need to find a balance between the needs of the relationship (e.g. time together) and the needs of the individuals in that relationship (e.g. his climbing time & her exercise time or "girls nights out")." |
FLAG |
By KCP
From Eldorado Springs, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Tony Bubb wrote: You are a peice of work. If you want the books, I'll drop them off at your house. I have them, I've read them, and it's your turn. Google my ass, OK? The last time I had to google the stuff when when I was writing a reseach paper on it at Purdue University with my advisor.
Tony,
Were you always this full of shit? I asked you show me one reference from a qualified source, stating that "females try to change males as a consequence of genetic propensity", and you have yet to fulfill that task. With all your resources, I would think that producing that statement would be a breeze.
Still waiting. |
FLAG |
By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Ken Cangi wrote: Tony, Were you always this full of shit? I asked you show me one reference from a qualified source, stating that "females try to change males as a consequence of genetic propensity", and you have yet to fulfill that task. With all your resources, I would think that producing that statement would be a breeze. Still waiting.
Full of shit?
The only shit I am full of is what you try to cram into my mouth.
YOU said genetic. I didn't. For all you know, I was origionally saying it was socialized. You have to change what I say to find a problem with it. What a weak mind.
You'll just attack whatever I say anyway rather than address your own deep ignorance.
It is you who needs the education, so go get some books and read them. Or go see a counselor. I'll pay for your first session and take up a collection for the next several.
Ken Cangi wrote: It's called communication. Stop assuming that I'm out to be a dick. Find another f--king punching bag because Ken is over it.
And for the record, I don't assume you are out to be a dick, so quit assuming what I was assuming.
The simple and true fact of the matter is that I NEVER thought you were TRYING to be a dick.
I just figured you couldn't help it! |
FLAG |
By KCP
From Eldorado Springs, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Leo Paik wrote: As a husband of 15+ yrs of marriage & ~20 yrs of relationship to the same woman, I think it can work out with a non-climbing spouse. To her credit, my wife tried climbing >70 X but didn't find it rewarding enough. Probably the keys for us are immense respect for your spouse and believing in giving more than taking. It helps to also feel you're the lucky one in the relationship (I am). We climbers tend to be a fairly self-centered bunch, so learning to balance things in life can be challenging. Giving veto power (or consent) on climbing days helps to empower your spouse. Trying to fit in climbing around work, spouse, & family priorities helps, too. An important part of a good relationship is the ability to find joy in having your spouse do the things that inspire her/him. According to my wife, "in the end, you need to find a balance between the needs of the relationship (e.g. time together) and the needs of the individuals in that relationship (e.g. his climbing time & her exercise time)."
Well said, Leo. |
FLAG |
By KCP
From Eldorado Springs, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Tony Bubb wrote: YOU said genetic. I didn't. For all you know, I was saying it was socialized.
Who knows what the hell you are really trying to say, but this is what you said:
Tony Bubb wrote: Men get married thinking she WON'T change. Women get married thinking that he WILL change.
It's a pretty cut and dry statement. Are you going to corroborate the comment, or are you ready to admit that your comment was patronizing and chauvinistic? |
FLAG |
By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Ken Cangi wrote: Are you going to corroborate the comment, or are you ready to admit that your comment was patronizing and chauvinistic?
OK, time for me to fess up!
It is a paraphrased quote from my 73-year-old liscensed conselor and therapist specializing in marriage and family counseling.
The very pre-marriage counselor that my wife and I decided to see 2 years ago, prior to getting hitched!
Back the to subject at large, I HIGHLY encourage couples thinking about getting married to do this, no matter how good and how healthy your relationship is. You can go for pre-marriage counseling, and if you have UBH your employer will foot the bill. It just makes things even better. |
FLAG |
By percious
From Bear Creek, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Wow, this was initially an interesting post that went downhill fast. What happened to Guideline #1?
-chris |
FLAG |
By Maurice Liddy
From Plymouth, NH
Jan 9, 2008
| Why on earth can you not take this drivel to PM?
Oh shit, now Ive done it too! I guess the thread was already hijacked anyway.. |
FLAG |
By Mike Mu.
Jan 9, 2008
| Ken Cangi wrote: I think you are confusing women trying to change men with women being more willing to work at a relationship. They are not the same. Any relationship worth its salt has been through many trials and tribulations, and a few outright wars. The problem with too many people is that they have been weened on instant gratification, and when things don't immediately go their way, they quit and move on. Betsy and I didn't start out at this point. In fact, we have probably worked through more than most are willing to, but it was worth every battle scar now to get to where we are now in our relationship. Not only is she still my lover, and climbing partner, but she has become my best friend. You'll never know the elation of winning or finishing a marathon if you aren't willing to hit the wall several times along the way.
WORD! To get the most out of life you need to harden the F*@k up! Relationships included, and at the first sight of something you dont like, work through it instead of tucking tail and running. that has made all the difference for me. So climbers with non-climbing spouses, follow the advice of gunny hartman and chopper--"Harden the F*@k up!!" |
FLAG |
By KCP
From Eldorado Springs, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Tony Bubb wrote: And for the record, I don't assume you are out to be a dick, so quit assuming that was what I was assuming. The simple and true fact of the matter is that I NEVER thought you were TRYING to be a dick. I just figured you couldn't help it!
Of course. When unable to support your claim with evidence, just resort to callow insults. Why am I not surprised?
Your comment was chauvinistic and offensive. It and the comment from the guy who said that women use their children as leverage over men, warrant equal disdain. The biggest difference between you and him is that he didn't try to justify his sexist remark with a bunch of pseudo intellectual butt coughing. |
FLAG |
By KCP
From Eldorado Springs, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Mike McHugh wrote: Tony, Ken - I'm gonna chase you guys down and give you some big ol' hugs.
You just send those in Tony's direction. I get all the group hug action that I can handle from Bob and Greg. |
FLAG |
By Kat A
From Bart and Lisa Ville, CO
Jan 9, 2008
| Stu Ritchie wrote: ...not to mention the petty jealousies involved with the occassional female climbing partner.
When I was married I felt pressure to find female climbing partners in order to alleviate any potential issues with my then-husband. Kinda tough when there are a lot more guys in the partner finder than women. It wasn't climbing that ended my marriage, but I happened to get into the sport as the relationship was coming to an end. When you go through an ordeal as rough as a divorce, it's helpful to have something positive to focus your energy on - not to mention the friends and new partners you meet along the way.
Leo, reading the comments you posted, I can see why you and your wife have been married for so long! |
FLAG |
By tom selleck
Jan 10, 2008
| I love the fact that my wife doesn't climb because it forces me to leave the self-absorbed little vacuum that climbing can create. |
FLAG |
By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Jan 10, 2008
| Eyes Of Green wrote: Unfortunately, I do think women esp. are often put into and expected to assume roles in the household and family life that preclude them from developing and maintaining passionate interests separate from those of the family. It's not impossible, but rarely do I see men staying home to take care of the kids and clean the house while their wife goes off regularly for a ski day or weekend. Rather, when the wife gets out, it's usually in the form of family trips where her responsibilities just continue.
I'm curious if you think having a nanny day helps to address this- whereas neither of you have the kids 1-2X per week? Or if the women would just rather not be without the kids? Mine, for example says she'll likely feel that way, but I don't know if that is fairly common or just her feeling on it. |
FLAG |
By KCP
From Eldorado Springs, CO
Jan 10, 2008
| I wonder how many of the spouses are actually concerned about the consumption of time involved in climbing, because I can't see the difference in it and, for instance, playing golf on the weekend.
It seems to me that most men with busy family schedules are usually able to get away once a week for a round of golf without upsetting a spouse. So maybe this has more to do with their fear that you are more likely to be seriously injured or worse, potentially leaving your family in a terrible bind. |
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