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Nomics Or Fusions?
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By APBT1976
Jan 22, 2012
Black Dike 12/25/11

Dane,

What are the chances of getting some of those pics for the newest generation Cobra's you have on one of your sites?


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By Dave Cummings
From Grand Junction, CO
Jan 23, 2012
me on my redpoint

I have a pair of Cobras and a pair of Fusions. My buddy that I climb ice with most of the time has a pair of Quarks and Nomics. If we are in the mountains the Cobra and Quark are the obvious choice. In the moderate ice I tend to stick with my Cobra while my partner will switch to the Nomics. On hard ice and mixed routes I am on the Fusions and he is on the Nomics. I find that the Nomics climb really well on most terrain and are very user friendly. I think that if you want to climb pure ice routes on the Fusion that the laser pick is the way to go. The Nomic has a very natural swing and that is why it is so popular. The Fusion and Cobra do not swing the same, I find that after a few days on the Fusion I had figured out how to swing them well and I love them now. If you want one tool to do it all I would say the Nomic is a great choice but if you want a second set of tools for high end climbing the Fusion is every bit as good as the Nomic. I also feel any tool you get needs getting used to and the biggest thing is that once you reach a certain level of fitness it really doesn't matter what tool you have in your hand.


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By Bang
From Charlottesville, VA
Jan 23, 2012
Thanks Hank Caylor!

Dane wrote:
Huge fan of the Nomic. Petzl engineering and productions skills recently? Not so much. There has been a limited production hammer available for the Nomic since the winter of 2008/09.

Hi Dane,

Do you still have the CT adze for sale nowadays?


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By Frosty Weller
From Colorado
Jan 23, 2012
Desert Tower

Dane, any plans on more CT Nomic hammers or do we need to wait until next Fall?

Thanks


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By Dane
Jan 24, 2012
Cham '11

No more adze Bang, sorry. I'll have a batch of hammers finished and available again shortly.


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By Dave77
From Watertown, NY
Jan 24, 2012
me in NH

i want in on some nomic hammers.


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By Frosty Weller
From Colorado
Jan 25, 2012
Desert Tower

Dane if there is something I should do to get on "the list" for the CT Nomic hammers let me know! Thanks! :-)


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By cms829
Jan 25, 2012
high e

not much love for the fusions. dang. I just bought a pair. Plan on throwing some lasers on em for ice and put the stockers back on for hopefully some First ascent mixed routes. Anyway, I understand how angles and grips and such can change the swing of a tool...what i dont understand is how it seems to make a good pick into a marginal pick. such as the laser picks. From what Ive gathered online, theyre a pretty steller water ice pick. I have climbed with current gen cobras for two years and love the pick (not sure what model pick is on em). but how could you throw that same pick onto a different shaft with slightly different angles, and it becomes a not so great tool. Once you learn to modify your swing, shouldnt it climb just the same? the only part contacting the ice is the pick and the bottom of the shaft temporarily.

Ive climbed ice for 5 years or so now, never too seriously but planned on it this year until Mr. Winter decided to skip over the northeast. Anyway...Its just something that has always raised my eyebrow. How could the shaft possibly make the "best" tool, a marginal one? Does it have more to do with personal preference? Or a swing that you have gotten dialed in over the years that people have difficulty modifying? Someone shine some light on the scientific reasoning. Cause I just dont think there really is a whole hell of a lot of difference between the nomic and the fusion, or any modern tool made of similar design, dimensions, and angles?

Exactly what makes the fusion mediocre at climbing water ice when a proper pick is installed? what makes the nomic better? Say each had the same exact pick fastened, then what? Would there be much of a difference? Or is the pick on the nomic the game changer?


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By paintrain
Jan 25, 2012
Chuck Norris can Divide by Zero

I think there are half a dozen factors that make people prefer one over another. In the end it is a tool hitting the ice and how the pick, shaft, balance, head weight, handle angles, and swing dynamic come together at that point of contact and into the ice is what will dictate its performance.

I personally think that Petzl nailed it when they built the nomic, but that means they got the pick angle(s) matched with the rest of the tool into a device that works with a very natural swing.

You can learn to make anything work for you. People climbed a lot of hard ice with straight shafted tools for many years. There are just a lot of people who prefer the nomic over other tools (and some who prefer other tools over the nomic).

PT


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By Jeff Maurin
Jan 25, 2012
Jeff's head on Yvon's Body (Thanks Marty(r))

cms829 wrote:
...but how could you throw that same pick onto a different shaft with slightly different angles, and it becomes a not so great tool.


I think you partially answered your own question - it is all about the angles, the weight, stiffness and the other little things that contribute to a 'nice' swings and sticks.

cms829 wrote:
I have climbed with current gen cobras for two years and love the pick (not sure what model pick is on em).


The current generation of Cobras come with the Laser pick.

I have Fusions as well, I just put Laser picks on them for waterfall ice. I got a nice deal on them from a fellow PM'er and have no regrets.

cms829 wrote:
I just dont think there really is a whole hell of a lot of difference between the nomic and the fusion, or any modern tool made of similar design, dimensions, and angles?


That is kind of like saying there is not much difference between a Ford F150 and a Chevy Silverado. To me? no difference. To a real truck guy? I'm sure that could rattle of a dozen reasons why one is better than the other in particular situations. I think it is the same with 'similar' ice tools.


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By cms829
Jan 25, 2012
high e

Jeff Maurin wrote:
I think you partially answered your own question - it is all about the angles, the weight, stiffness and the other little things that contribute to a 'nice' swings and sticks. The current generation of Cobras come with the Laser pick. I have Fusions as well, I just put Laser picks on them for waterfall ice. I got a nice deal on them from a fellow PM'er and have no regrets. That is kind of like saying there is not much difference between a Ford F150 and a Chevy Silverado. To me? no difference. To a real truck guy? I'm sure that could rattle of a dozen reasons why one is better than the other in particular situations. I think it is the same with 'similar' ice tools.


lol see...i can relate to that. because i own a dodge ram 3500 cummins. haha. anyway. i understand that everything has its differences. I guess it is the same as putting a specific tire on a dodge, and it drives like a dream, but on a ford it is a death wish, mostly because of the angles and geometry of the suspension. I guess what im saying is, there are a lot more variables in suspension then there can be on a ice tool shaft, I guess to me, it just seems like things are more overcomplicated then they maybe should be. like you said guys used to climb WI6 with straight shafted tools. To me there are only so many geometries you can change on an ice tools. to me, the pick makes up most of the difference.

Im just bringing up a discussion, trying to learn some more. Thanks guys!


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By Bang
From Charlottesville, VA
Jan 25, 2012
Thanks Hank Caylor!

Dane wrote:
No more adze Bang, sorry. I'll have a batch of hammers finished and available again shortly.


Thanks Dane! I will love to get the CT Hammer as well for your next batch. Lolz, is the CT adze just like the unicorn, one and only one exists?


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By Keenan Waeschle
From Bozeman, MT
Jan 25, 2012
on top of the RNWF <br />June 2012

where can we sign up to get one of the nomic hammers? put me on the list.


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By Jeff J
From Bozeman
Jan 25, 2012

cms829 wrote:
not much love for the fusions.


the fusions are a good tool they just do better at mix and dry tooling than the Nomics IMHO.
cms829 wrote:
First ascent mixed routes.

You fusions will be just fine for that.

The angle of the Green fusions and the Nomics are nearly identicle. For some reason BD had yet to dial in a good pick. I have used reacters, vipers, cobras and green fusions and every one of them has the same problem. It takes more effort to to the get the pick to stick well and then and real bitch to clean.

For some reason with Petzl tools 1-2 swings yields a solid stick with merly a wrist flick, and then the pick lift right out of the ice with realitive ease. Petzl picks just seem to do better on pure ice then BD picks in general. After a real long day of climing Im less tired when using my Nomics when compared to Fusions for ice.

Now for drytooling where I am setting the tool on to its placemet (vs swinging in to ice) I find that the fusion's handle is easer to grip for extented perionds on time. Fusion with Titan pick for mixed is a good way to go.


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By cms829
Jan 25, 2012
high e

thats jeff. I think I may start getting some picks and trying to modify them to find something to allow the fusions to climb WI better, When I come into some spare cash, anyway.


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By Keenan Waeschle
From Bozeman, MT
Jan 25, 2012
on top of the RNWF <br />June 2012

my vipers with laser picks can be a fucking bitch to clean, like moving up and spending 20-30 seconds to physically rip them out of the ice, gripping the head and pulling kinda upward and back. I'm scared that I'll yank on it so hard it'll dislodge the tool I have in above but then that tool has the same problem. I'm thinking about upgrading to nomics but I can decide if I should keep the vipers, anyone care to comment on the merits of keeping a tool like the vipers? I want to have something I can take to alaska and (when I pony up the cash and time) patagonia. is the spike that important or should I just say fuckit and get rid of the orange tools?

I've only started ice climbing this year and I'm just getting into mixed. doing stuff up to M6 on my current tools, you think I should learn to climb mixed on vipers so when I buy nomics I'll crush or just start climbing with the more mixed oriented tools now?

slight thread drift but I think the point of nomics vs fusions has been discussed thoroughly.

thanks guys


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By coldfinger
Jan 25, 2012

Keenan Waeschle wrote:
my vipers with laser picks can be a fucking bitch to clean, like moving up and spending 20-30 seconds to physically rip them out of the ice, gripping the head and pulling kinda upward and back. I'm scared that I'll yank on it so hard it'll dislodge the tool I have in above but then that tool has the same problem. I'm thinking about upgrading to nomics but I can decide if I should keep the vipers, anyone care to comment on the merits of keeping a tool like the vipers? I want to have something I can take to alaska and (when I pony up the cash and time) patagonia. is the spike that important or should I just say fuckit and get rid of the orange tools? I've only started ice climbing this year and I'm just getting into mixed. doing stuff up to M6 on my current tools, you think I should learn to climb mixed on vipers so when I buy nomics I'll crush or just start climbing with the more mixed oriented tools now? slight thread drift but I think the point of nomics vs fusions has been discussed thoroughly. thanks guys


Try pushing IN on the shaft holding the grip, then lift up, most folks don't change grips as you lose a lot of leverage and time; as for the rest, I don't know where to start.


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By Frosty Weller
From Colorado
Jan 25, 2012
Desert Tower

These are all awesome tools. But the Fusion needs some love here... it's one of the best performing tools in it's own realm. It just depends on what you are looking to climb.

I agree with Jeff, the Fusions excel in the hard drytooling and mixed arena.

As to the difficulty when cleaning the tool from the ice...
Any of these tools can be over driven in some ice conditions to where they will be difficult to remove.

If you want picks easier to remove just file down all the teeth. Seriously though, it takes being dialed into your pick and your tool, as well as the ice to know what is an adequate placement. Experienced ice climbers usually tune their picks to their own tastes.

Climbing steep ice only all day with Fusions will certainly be more taxing than a Cobra or a Nomic. Again, Fusion is more of a specialist for dry tooling and hard mixed. Even with the same Lazer pick, a Cobra is better for pure ice than the Fusion. Put a Titan on the both, Fusion is going to rule over the Cobra on steep dry tooling/mixed. The tool and pick of choice in the end may simply depend on the conditions and the climb.

For me I'll chose a Cobra for alpine and a lot of ice. For ice with some mixed, Nomic. For more mixed or strictly dry tooling, Fusion.

If you have to pick one tool to go with and own you just have to evaluate what type of climbing you want to focus on. You really can't go wrong with any of the tools discussed in this thread.

It would be hard to take one tool, one pick, and excel across all the disciplines when it comes to ice and mixed climbing. Of course as said many times before, in the end it all comes down to the skills and strengths of the climber wielding the tools.


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By Dane
Jan 25, 2012
Cham '11

"You really can't go wrong with any of the tools discussed in this thread."

Agreed unless of course you don't have the expeience to make a good choice.

Fusion II is a good choice for the expert dry tooler or wanta be dry tooler. But it will climb ice as well.

The Cobra, Quark, Viper all decent all around tools for anything.

The Nomic is one of the easiest tools for anyone to climb with, on any terrain including dry tooling. new picks make it even better at dry tooling...not better on pure ice. Fuson looks a lot like it...but the Fusion isn't a duplicate. They climb differently.

Petzl has better picks...well until recently anyway but they don't break and just as important, easy in and out.

Everything listed is better than tools just a few generations back (5 to 10 years in tool time).

Most of the hard ice and a good bit of hard mixed was climbed with some pretty funky tools. None of the ones listed here will stop you on any route you are capable of. One or two of them will just make some routes easier. If you don't know the differenece don't worry about it. Buy what ever you can afford and just go climbing.




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By Auto-X Fil
From NEPA and Upper Jay, NY
Jan 25, 2012

Keenan Waeschle wrote:
my vipers with laser picks can be a fucking bitch to clean,



It's all technique. The top of the pick is sharp to aid in removal - when you "pump-handle" the tool it cuts into the ice above the placement, providing room for the pick to come out.

1) Don't blast them in. You don't need half a pick penetration to pull up on. Easy does it, especially with Lasers. Your arms will thank you at the end of the day, as well.

2) When you commit your weight to your upper tool (straight-armed), pull out on the handle of your lower tool, freeing the pick. You have a lot of leverage from this position, and it doesn't disturb the upper tool. Don't remove the lower tool from the ice - just loosen it.

3) When you move your feet up and stand up, pull your lower tool free. It should now come out easily.


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By Mike Larson
From Los Angeles, CA
Jan 25, 2012
Weeping Wall Central Pillar

Auto-X Fil wrote:
It's all technique. The top of the pick is sharp to aid in removal - when you "pump-handle" the tool it cuts into the ice above the placement, providing room for the pick to come out. 1) Don't blast them in. You don't need half a pick penetration to pull up on. Easy does it, especially with Lasers. Your arms will thank you at the end of the day, as well. 2) When you commit your weight to your upper tool (straight-armed), pull out on the handle of your lower tool, freeing the pick. You have a lot of leverage from this position, and it doesn't disturb the upper tool. Don't remove the lower tool from the ice - just loosen it. 3) When you move your feet up and stand up, pull your lower tool free. It should now come out easily.


Fact is your technique can be stone-solid and BD picks can still be a bitch to remove. Pick tuning isn't an option if you want to climb without feeling like you're pumping a bucket of water after every swing. Swing a pair of Nomics with cascade picks and then swing a pair of fusions with lasers and compare the pick extraction. It's not even close. Unfortunately Petzl regressed with their latest Ice picks for the new generation tools. Bring back the cascade Petzl!


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By cdec
From SLC and Moab, ut
Jan 25, 2012

Nomics


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By Keenan Waeschle
From Bozeman, MT
Jan 25, 2012
on top of the RNWF <br />June 2012

I'm a pussy and like to make sure my picks are bomber, even so, playing around on TR hooking stuff and doing light swings I've never had a tool pop out unexpectedly, so I think my technique is pretty good. I climb pretty fast too, don't like to spend a huge amount of time fucking around with my sticks on lead. Either way the few petzl tools I've used have cleaned no problem, another plus for the nomics. gonna keep my eyes open and see if I can score a deal.

I find in different ice conditions the cleanability of my tools varies drastically (no shit)


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By Dane
Jan 25, 2012
Cham '11

"It's all technique"

cough, cough, sputter and choke.....:)

It is some technique and a good bit tool design.


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By Kevin Brooks Henry
From Iowa City, IA
Jan 25, 2012
close up

Thanks everybody for the advice. Looks like I'm going to go with the Nomics, now I just need to save up money.
Thanks,
Brooks


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