Clean Green Dream 

FA: Bruce Holthouse, ?

Bruce added two more protection bolts to this climb a couple of years ago and when he went back the following week to lead it again, they were chopped. Expect some runout terrain.

Amazing. The FA places bolts to their own route and they are chopped. Were they placed near the crack or something?

What can you do? It only takes one.....

I climbed this 2 days ago. It just wasn't very run-out, even with the bolts as it is now; if you sling a convenient chickenhead and bring pro, this climb is more protected than nearby ones (Bienvenidos, Black Streak), so don't be discouraged from trying this- it's a really good climb. As it is, one bolt from the nearby start Dirty Black Nightmare is within reach of the crack at the beginning.

[I'm not saying that he should not have re-added bolts to this route. The FA can do what they want is my opinion. The fact that the bolts were chopped shows how self-righteous some people are. But I do wonder: how was person who removed the bolts to know that the FA was the one who had added these? Were initials stamped in the hangers? Should the person considering removing new bolts from an established climb contact the FA first? Signs at the parking suggested that adding any new bolts (other than replacing existing ones) anywhere at TP is forbidden; presumably this includes to your own route(?); I don't know whose policy it is or when it started...; Would it be out of line for anyone other than the FA to go and now replace the chopped late-addition bolts?]

I agree with you that one should not be that discouraged from this route, and also that the run-out is really not all that bad. The crux is well protected.

Chopping bolts is a touchy subject. You bring up excellent questions and some that could result in, I am sure, endless debate. Although it may be difficult to find who the first ascensionist is for a particular route, it seems that at least an attempt to find or contact them would be appropriate (and how do I know he did not? I don't), rather than acting on impulse and chopping bolts! This to me seems, as stated, quite self righteous. Though, it is still a great route as it is!

I recently heard rumors of who [probably] removed the retro-bolts, and that they [and the 3rd-hand rumormonger who told me] were not aware that the FA [Holthouse] had added them. I don't know these people personally, nor do I intend to confront them, and certainly I'm not going to accuse anyone based on 4th-hand information. It's too bad the 'choppers' didn't ask the FA first.

If the rumors are right as to who it was, I think it is likely that this info will now get back to them fairly soon (because of Mike's post on this site sharing what happened and word spreading through the grapevine); hopefully they'll feel bad about it, maybe they'll apologize or even reverse their destruction. Or maybe they won't give a s--t.

George,
Wild huh? Kind of espionage intrigue sort of cool that there is a person who is keeping the place as is for the rest of us. Bruce just laughed it off. I don't care who it is but I have to think if they are putting that sort of energy into chopping a FAist addition would they please chop and upgrade some of the aging hardware in between. I'll pitch in for the gear if they want to email me...or just light a cigarette on the corner at 1 am in a trechcoat...
Some of us were surprised to see that a new (bolting ban aside) route put up last year on the mosaic wall was disappeared about 2 weeks later. Excellent reclamation too, not a hint of the holes. Perhaps the same posse. That route created a fair amount of discussion in the community and then poof, it was gone. I like the idea of some party being so committed to the place and I fully support the efforts of folks working with the property owner/USFS but just wild to think I haven't a clue who it is...unless...

Not me,

Mike

ps. Tres Piedres is still under a bolting ban, que no?

Where was the new line put up on the Mosaic Wall last year? Clean Green Dream is runout where it is easy but not nearly as airy as Better Red Than Dead.

My understanding of the bolt ban is that it is voluntary rather than an official FS policy. Some bolts do need replacement, particularly the older routes on North Wall. Raise the Titanic could use some love, as the fixed pins have likely not been checked in years. Luckily most folks who step up to the route are not going to fall (you hope). The tree anchor on the 12 on the Mosaic Wall could also be replaced. That tree inspires little confidence for a TR anchor and I can't remember if you can get gear in to back it up.

This is not meant to denigrate the TP locals, but sometimes I think they also raise the specter of a bolt ban just to discourage out of town folks from doing the few remaining new routes. Taos climbers, feel free to tell me I am wrong and that the bolt ban is only due to access/private landowner concerns. If the ban is in effect, I would like to see it writing to understand what is prohibited.

The bolted line that apparantly existed for only about two weeks was on the face just to the right of Chicken Shit and -Heads, left of Fried Chickens and Better Red Than Dead. It is virtually unprotected without bolts. Parties often toprope the interesting portion of this line from the anchor midway up Five Years After.
It was supposedly removed by the same party that removed Clean Green Dream bolts.

William,
I was under the impression there really is a "bolting ban" in place and that a variety of local climbers had worked out tenuous access with a landowner and the USFS. My understanding is that any activity (new routing or replacement) is frowned upon and may jeopardize access. There may be a process by which you can get USFS permit, but I have never heard of anyone going through that route. I know that both Dennis Jackson's and Jay Foley's books are pretty clear about the issues in the text. I don't have a copy of a written policy but I am confident there is NO Bolting there now. This is directly from individuals who have spoken with the parties involved. Please respect this until someone who has talked to the USFS and the property owner has confirmed a permit process.

Cheers,

Mike

Mike,

That may be the case there is a real ban in place. Foley and Jackson are clear about the existence of a ban, just not clear about the nature and history of the ban or who is actually involved. So be it and I'll abide by it, although I still think my suggestion up-thread has some validity. Someone should coordinate with FS to replace the antique hardware on the older routes, as that is totally different than adding new bolts. I will donate my time and hardware if anyone pulls this idea together. Still, it is strange that those three adjacent routes on South Rock were bolted during the ban and there was no reaction.

I have seen visitorship increase over the years and last season it was crazy; it seems likely that more folks will be the eventual breaking point not a new or replaced bolt here or there. One day last year there must have been 30+ climbers and at least that many hikers. I do miss the weekends when you saw nobody, even in the prime season.

William and George,
Again, I'd like to say I don't have strong opinions about new routes at TP, or at least not enough to upset anyone else, but I will echo the words of the few FA'ists I have been fortunate to climb with and who's conviction toward quality has influenced my thinking on the subject. If it does happen, I hope it will be in a manner that is in accordance with the land managers' wishes and in the context of the tradition at TP. The new (worthy) route potential is limited on some of the walls and I would prefer it to be done with a respect for the surrounding routes history, style and quality.

The thought of rap bolted, shiny-hangered, contrived routes that do not follow natural lines sprouting up a few feet away from and/or crowded in between the classics makes me shiver. Nothing worse than trying to climb a challenging trad-head-point classic and seeing a new shiny bolt three feet to the left on a line that the FAist chose to leave as a named toprope for years.

Going ground up, (hand) drilling from stances, pushing into the harder terrain that has been left for this GenX (or GenR) is a proud proposal. It is a craft that few practice but the rewards are immeasurable for the capable and the consequences severe for the over confident. I would like to leave those lines for the talented few. I have no doubt that experienced developers with an open canvas at TP could squeeze out a few more respectful classics, but a free for all leg lifting grid bolting of that beautiful rock will make me cry. Let's go bolt the gorge...there are miles of that schwag to grid bolt. There is just not enough pristine granite in the area to risk losing this special spot.

Kudos to Holthouse and all the others that had that vision and to the ones still to come that will blow our minds.

Respectfully,
Mike

edit: William, I just spoke with someone in the know. There is no written "Ban". It is a complex history and situation involving private and public property. Perhaps we will hear more about it in these pages in the coming days. Cheers

Mike,

I agree, new routes should respect the previous styles, if not better them when possible. TP is perfect for ground-up routes because of the stances and relatively easy hooking. I also agree that any routes that crowd established lines and create a grid are not desired by anyone. Like I said previously, increased numbers of folks at TP will destroy its character and jeopardize access more than a few respectful new routes.

It is important to state that previewing routes on TR or even rap-bolting is not a total enemy of the area as the FA team on Techweenie used the benefit of a TR preview. Your description of the bolting ban jives with what I had heard before. I think you can rest assured that there are no folks charging their drills waiting for the ban to be lifted.

If the ban is partially in place to keep the less talented hoards from grid-bolting the place, then I feel this is not the best way to approach the matter. In my opinion, the later generations of climbers have not heard the history of TP (or many other areas) and do not understand the ethics and style of the first ascensionists. The lack of good climbing history sections in guidebooks means this info is not passed on to those folks who get introduced to an area through a book, rather than through a older, knowledgeable partner. That is not meant to be a slam on guidebook authors, as I know they have to economize on space and are not paid what they should be for a generally thankless task (Thanks Jay and Dennis).

The early history of TP is still waiting to be told. Holthouse et al. left behind an amazing legacy that makes TP a special place to climb. Bruce's legacy is so enduring that I have never seen anyone do the lines in between Serpentine Crack and Holthouse in a Haulsack. I always want to try them but am waiting for the confluence of TP mojo and psyche because I would love to do them in the best style, ie, onsight.

Almost all the major formations are climbed out and do not need new lines. Other formations that lack routes do have some space, usually just one or two lines on a formation. An example of this is a route I put up some years back to the right of, and behind, the Alien. Nice shady spot when the rest of the areas are roasting, and fun climbing as well. Next time you are out there, climb it and let me know if it is incongruous with the other routes in the area.

This is a good discussion that is oddly shoehorned into Clean Green Dream.

I just found this web site today, and having not been to TP in several years, I am curious who the self proclaimed God Squad of TP is that is chopping bolts. Jay's book has a "unknown" route on North Wall that was chopped. That was my route, and no one ever even asked me what the style was. Besides, what is the "style" at TP?

Sometime in the mid eighties, someone surveyed the property lines. I recall being a little surprised at who owned what. It really doesn't matter, climbers just need to respect the rock, the surroundings, etc, and we will have the area to enjoy for a long time.

Welcome Doug,
I look forward to your contribution and helping us fill in the gaps.
Mike