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New Bolts on Dags in Beanland
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By Mitch Musci
Jun 30, 2013
I bring this up in an attempt to get the facts straight, as I am concerned this route is *becoming* a sport climb.

Last week I went up to Cedar Park Slab to climb Dags for the first time. From what I had heard and read, it was quite the adventure including spicy climbing and an involved descent. What I found was amidst the excellent climbing, there seems to be quite a few more bolts than what Gillett's 2001 guide depicts in the topo.

P1 has 3 bolts leading past an overlap, then a final bolt along a diagonal seam to a 2 bolt rap anchor at a ledge (well right of the trees). The original topo has 1 bolt down low with no bolted anchor shown.

P2 has 2 bolts above the roof before gaining the 2 bolt rap anchor. The original topo has 1 bolt above the roof.

P3 has 4 new bolts on it (rock dust still present) plus a bolted rap anchor next to the twisted pine. Original topo shows one bolt mid pitch and no bolted anchor.

P4 has 6 bolts on the final slab, ending at a 2 bolt rap anchor 40 feet from the top. The original topo has 3 bolts and no bolted anchor.

So I have to ask...were the first ascensionists contacted before adding these bolts? It does not seem that bolts were replaced, but added. There is no question that the bolts make the climb safer, but I think the community would agree that unless given permission, this is a solid example of retrobolting and this practice is unacceptable. Dags was once a runout Luebben masterpiece. Now it is tamed and can be rapped with a single 70m.

Looking up at pitch 3. New bolts circled in red. The crack next to the first bolt takes a bomber tricam. A few feet above the second bolt is a horizontal crack that takes an excellent Alien or equivalent.
Looking up at pitch 3. New bolts circled in red. The crack next to the first bolt takes a bomber tricam. A few feet above the second bolt is a horizontal crack that takes an excellent Alien or equivalent.

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By Ryan-Nelson
From Fort Collins, CO
Jul 2, 2013
NCCC
bump

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By Bruce Hildenbrand
Jul 2, 2013
I did Dags about 1 year ago. Here is what I found:

Pitch 1 - 1 bolt about 20 feet up.

Pitch 2 - 5 bolts. 1 bolt over the roof seems to be added after the FA

Pitch 3 - no bolts

Pitch 4 - 2 bolts in a water streak.

It sounds very likely that someone has added bolts to this route which is a shame. The late Craig Luebben put this route up in fine style. There is no need to add any bolts. The added bolts and rap anchors should be removed.

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By RomoFo
Jul 2, 2013
Oh no
What a bummer. I climbed that over 10 years ago and it was such a great route with just the right amount of gear and widely spaced bolts. Such a shame.

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By Mitch Musci
Jul 3, 2013
Thanks for the updates guys, yes this really is a shame.

To the bolter: If Craig was here he would stomp you with his meathooks and feed you dog shit for years. RIP

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By slim
Administrator
Jul 4, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.
Mitch Musci wrote:
If Craig was here he would stomp you with his meathooks and feed you dog shit for years. RIP


yeeaaahhh, I'm pretty sure Craig wouldn't do that.....

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By CJC
Jul 4, 2013
pussies

chop em

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By The Phoenix
Jul 5, 2013
The Phoenix
Wa Wa Wa... booo hoooo Mitchy... whatcha gonna do? Hows about report back with your chop report complete with images of nicely patched holes?
Mitchy.
Mitchy.

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By Mitch Musci
Jul 5, 2013
Haha, funny how things can turn into a bashing thread so quickly. I'm trying to do the right thing and get some input from the community instead of just jumping to conclusions and chopping.

What some of you guys don't understand is that the latter is what starts bolt wars. If you take the time to think things through and verify that yes, there was no permission from the FA and yes, the route was retrobolted and yes, the community does not want the bolts to stay then guess what? All the sudden you can remove the bolts without starting a war. Afterall we are dealing with a classic route put up by a legend and minimizing damage should be the priority.

There is always the possibility that the retrobolter will go back and reinstall but at least we made an honest effort to restore the route with mature tactics. That is what Craig Luebben would want.

Slim, CJC, and Phoenix...if you can qualify yourselves a little more then I can consider your input. Do you live on the front range? Have you climbed the route? This actually is an important topic and if people are thinking this should be chopped then that is good input.

Lizz Grenard, Matt Beanland...are you guys around? How about Bernard Gillett?

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By CJC
Jul 5, 2013
The Phoenix wrote:
Wa Wa Wa... booo hoooo Mitchy... whatcha gonna do? Hows about report back with your chop report complete with images of nicely patched holes?


better go climb it while you can...after those bolts are gone you'll be too skeered.

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By Greg Berry
Jul 5, 2013
Who owns this rock?

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By Mitch Musci
Jul 5, 2013
Greg, the rock resides within Roosevelt National Forest. Access is touchy but Tom Kelley makes a great point under the Cedar Park Slab comments that there is lawful access without crossing private property. See here

maps1.larimer.org/apps/lcparlo...

Zoom in on T06N R71W and find the rock. You can use the Landscape and Imagery Explorer for aerial photos.

Here is my suggestion for approach


Cedar Park Slab approach.
Cedar Park Slab approach.

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By s.price
From PS,CO
Jul 5, 2013
 Morning Dew ,self portrait
This is a rig in need of restoration. Perfect example of a weakling "dumbing down" another classic. Sack Up or go back to the gym.

Climbed this 6 years ago and thought it was great.

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By Greg Berry
Jul 6, 2013
Thanks Mitch.

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By Stiles
From the Mountains
Jul 6, 2013
Rough
+2 Chop. The sooner the better; l'll buy the guy with the restoration skills cold beers

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By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Jul 6, 2013
At the BRC
s.price wrote:
go back to the gymt.


Why would a gym climber hike out in the middle of nowhere to place a few bolts on a 5.8 slab? More likely a local who takes his girlfriends up the route or a guide service. Leave the gym climbers out of it.

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By Buster Jesik
Jul 6, 2013
me climbing
Mark,

There is only one guide service who is permitted to operate in the national forest... and it wasn't us. I admit guides will occasionally fix up anchors and maintain routes they often use, but they won't over bolt 5.8 or put bolts next to cracks.

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By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Jul 7, 2013
At the BRC
Buster Jesik wrote:
Mark, There is only one guide service who is permitted to operate in the national forest... and it wasn't us. I admit guides will occasionally fix up anchors and maintain routes they often use, but they won't over bolt 5.8 or put bolts next to cracks.

Sorry, didn't mean to accuse anyone in particular.
Just annoys me when gym or sport climbers get blamed for what seems clearly to be a trad vs trad dispute.
Who would bolt up this route anyway?

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By Brett Yost
From Bend, Oregon
Apr 25, 2014
I climbed this in fall 1994 after Craig or Liz published a topo in one of the mags. Someone ought to be able to find a copy of this article and reference the original state of the climb.

I have wonderful memories of this climb.

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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Apr 25, 2014
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.
Mitch Musci wrote:
Haha, funny how things can turn into a bashing thread so quickly. I'm trying to do the right thing and get some input from the community instead of just jumping to conclusions and chopping. What some of you guys don't understand is that the latter is what starts bolt wars. If you take the time to think things through and verify that yes, there was no permission from the FA and yes, the route was retrobolted and yes, the community does not want the bolts to stay then guess what? All the sudden you can remove the bolts without starting a war. Afterall we are dealing with a classic route put up by a legend and minimizing damage should be the priority. There is always the possibility that the retrobolter will go back and reinstall but at least we made an honest effort to restore the route with mature tactics. That is what Craig Luebben would want. Slim, CJC, and Phoenix...if you can qualify yourselves a little more then I can consider your input. Do you live on the front range? Have you climbed the route? This actually is an important topic and if people are thinking this should be chopped then that is good input. Lizz Grenard, Matt Beanland...are you guys around? How about Bernard Gillett?


Craig was a friend of mine, and no he certainly would have not come to violence about it. And saying he would have smears his name. So perhaps that is what some of the reaction to your post was about.

I don't know what Lizz G. is up to these days, but if you like I'll see if I can locate her- it's been a while. I suspect she still hangs around with Bobbi a little, if you see her around. As for Bernard, he's a friend and climbing partner. Do you want something related to him? You can PM him from his profile on the site here or PM me and I'll get it to him.

BTW- I climbed Dags a long time ago, shortly after it was put up (1995) and live in the front range, since you asked about those as qualifiers.
Slim also lives in the front range and has climbed most stuff around here, since you asked. I don't know who Phoenix is, but I do know of CJC, who has climbed plenty here as well. CJC is not a close associate of mine however, so that's all I know for sure.

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By Mitch Musci
Apr 25, 2014
Right...internet forums are the worst place for sarcasm, and we all know that Craig was a first class guy. Far more classy than myself.

As far as I know, the route is still in the state I found it in last year. The flooding and winter months have put a damper on restoration efforts, as well as personal injuries I have been battling. But I'm not here to make excuses...it's on my (and my friends') list and we'll get to it soon enough. And If someone else feels like stepping up then don't be shy. Cheers.

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By slim
Administrator
Apr 25, 2014
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.
i think tony's first paragraph pretty much sums it up.

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By kyle kingrey
From Loveland
May 3, 2014
one and only BTC ice climb of season 2013
I climbed this route shortly after it was put up. It was the first real run-out, multi pitch sport/trad climb I had ever done. It was an amazing, fairly scary route that day. It was perfect. Climbed it many times over the years since then and always had a fantastic,secluded adventure. Today (5/3/14) I climbed it again and was disappointed (but oddly relived) to see that the first pitch had two bolts below the first original hangar. The added bolts on this entire route couldn't even be clipped properly due to the size of the hole. Thought that was weird.. anyway, If they go away I won't miss them. It felt like a sport climb today, wasn't as spicy or as memorable as years ago. Whoever added them should really do the right thing and remove them. They could be used to form another route elsewhere on Seam Rock. CL, you are missed.

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