Hi everyone,

I hiked up to the promised land last week when I was in Red Rocks to check it out and man does this place looks awesome. Does anyone still Climb here anymore???

Anyone...

Bump

It's pretty deserted out there. I went up last year and carried out some disintegrating water jugs and a rope in a nearly nonexistent plastic bag with Randy Leavitt's name on it, chewed through in a dozen places by critters. Judging from the rope model, I'd say Randy's rope sat out there in a pretty easy to see spot for the last eight years or so. I've climbed some routes there and enjoyed myself. From what I hear, once the chippers moved on to the next place they couldn't climb without wrecking the place (mostly Robber's Roost these days, sometimes right in front of families of tourists, but also other areas that are experienceing chipping access related issues such as Arrow Canyon) the place has been pretty empty. Little B told me his first 13a was Fistful of Dreadlocks, and reccommended it. I haven't climbed enough routes up there to really give you the skinny but I had a good time and there wasn't a moron with a handful of animal crackers in sight. Nice spot.

Killis,

What is this you say about "chipping" in Arrow Canyon? To my knowledge there has been no chipping of any kind in Arrow. Nor is this the reason for the access issue. The access issue is strictly due to the fact that the existing road to the recently installed BLM gate/trailhead crosses private land. I'd like to know where this info on "chipping" is coming from. It'd be a sad state of affairs if a pristine limestone canyon such as Arrow gets labeled as being "chipped".

Jon,

I've incurred the wrath of the less talented a few times for publicizing specifics here, and I'm happy to do so again if it has any possibility of changing the tactics that are being used to dumb down routes that were pretty dumb to start out with.

[Personal attack deleted by Moderator].

Killis,

I don’t want to go back and forth on this with you. I know your position on this subject and others. However, you are slightly misinformed. Yeah it’s true that Joe drove his truck on the road that goes through the canyon (as have many others), it’s true he used a generator and non-cordless drill to bolt a couple of routes. I know this because I was there, as was another, separate, group of climbers and route developers. I just want to say though, all of Joe’s other faults aside, he has NEVER “improved”, “chipped”, “chiseled”, “manufactured”, etc. any hold on any of the dozens of routes he’s put up. Again I know this because I’ve either been there when they went up and would never have allowed him to use such tactics or have climbed them personally. If your opinion still differs I’d be glad to take you out and put you on any of the routes that Joe put up when he lived here. Just let me know.

Another thing I would like to point out is the time lapse between Joe’s bolting in Arrow and the BLM gate. We’re talking an entire year. An entire year full of 4-wheelers, jeep rallies, and boy scout troops in their big white church vans, and yes climbers, all driving that road. Joe’s driving back there and running a generator is a drop in proverbial bucket of impact. To say that the BLM put that gate up solely because of Joe or because of any single act is absurd. As it stands now climbing is still allowed in Arrow Canyon, but rumors start going out that people are out there "chipping" and we can kiss another beautiful limestone crag goodbye.

Anyway, let me know when you want to go check out those routes.

Killis
How do you and your posts make climbers look? We understand you don't like chipping, but why not give it a rest and just go rock climbing?
Darren

The Arrow Canyon vehicle barrier was constructed for many reasons, but the biggest reason is because Arrow Canyon is part of the Arrow Canyon Wilderness Area. The Arrow Canyon Wilderness was designated on November 6, 2002 as part of the Clark County Conservation of Public Land Act.

The plain and simple fact is that Arrow Canyon is wilderness, thus the area is to be managed as stated in the 1964 Wilderness Act.

If climbers want to continue to protect and maintain the stance that they are good stewards of the land they should not be chipping, gluing, modifying hand and or foot holds, leaving perma-draws in the cave, and driving past the vehicle barrier. If climbers decide not be good stewards of the land it could affect access all together.

I always advise before anybody puts up a new route anywhere in S NV, give me a call and I can let you know if the area has any resource concerns from the BLM side. Yes, I may tell you something you do not want to hear, but the majority of the time there are no problems. Here is my number at work for anybody to call any time you have questions (702) 515-5138.

Jonathan,

Well spoken.

[Personal attack deleted by Moderator].

I plan to visit Arrow Canyon again, this time not in July. I look forward to seeing both the good climbs and the bad ones, and enjoying my constitutionally protected right to a low opinion of some of them. Just because it isn't in the route manufacturer's interest to have some overly vocal trad bumbly point out that there's spray paint, sika, concrete, drilled pockets, and badly worn decades-old permatat all over a specific spot, as well as stashed ropes, boom boxes, and lawn chairs (guess where-Potosi, the Hood, VRG-or all three?), doesn't mean that an [extremely] small minority of us folks dumb enough to spend our weekends outdoors without even the basic necessities like satellite cable hookup aren't going to make our voices heard. You don't have to climb 5.14 to appreciate the vast waste of truly hard climbing that dumbing down the rock causes, and, in my view, most climbers out there are vastly uninformed about what's still going on in that area. It would be a tragedy if some Douche of Hazzard cocked up what is undeniably a beautiful place to climb for everyone.

[Personal attack deleted by Moderator].

Thanks for the encouragement, Stacy, I appreciate open dialogue. I was less aware of other user groups' impact before you chimed in, and I can see that you care about keeping a special place like Arrow open. I'm right there with you.

If it seems like this thread is getting a little stale, that's most likely because I was unknowingly taking Snipes' advice and doing something useful with my time. As the fall season is kicking in and the weather is getting better than perfect, it's only a random moment here or there that I can be bothered to sit at this terminal and make climbers look like a divided bunch of socially maladjusted Popeye wannnabes wearing cute little capris with giant overcompensating Bosch penile substitutes.

Or, I like to have fun in the outdoors just as much as the next guy, and happen to have an opinion all my own, based on my own prejudices and unique experience. You don't have to agree with it or read it-but even if you're finding fault with it, you're reading it, and not out climbing either. Your loss! - Sporty K

[Personal attack deleted by Moderator].

Maybe the most important thing to remember here is not who chipped what, where they spilled oil and its derivitives, or other supposed unscrupulous behaviors, but that in no way does the accusatory nature of SOME posts on this thread - along with their defensive counterparts - contribute to the useful knowledge of the climbing community or the awareness of climbers who are concerned with access.

The original question posed had to do with climbing a rock, nothing else. The tangential qualities inherent in this kind of forum seem reasonable and informative in many cases, however, I fail to see the point of expressing personal opinions regarding the individual character of others. Factual information, on the other hand, can be quite helpful in determining how all of us can improve ourselves as stewards of the environment while retaining the privelage and pleasure of climbing a rock now and again.

Darren's remark is well stated: "...why not give it a rest and just go rock climbing?"

people still climb there but the hike in makes it not a total climb a thon. the approach is beautiful and so is the rock. the climbs are very intersting and from what i did very technical and solid for the grades. also pack it in and pack it out. i have done to much cleaning on my visits to this place. i am tired or cleaning up after people. so if you want to challange yourself and enjoy a day of limestone. well go for it and enjoy the sounds of you and your parnter being there alone. if you plan to get up to the upper level tie in and clip of the traverse. the rope before looks dry rotten and might not hold any more. well take care and enjoy the climbs.

I agree that this thread got way off task; just goes to show what boredom from a sprained ankle can lead to. Thanks to all the ethical first ascentionists who leave as little trace as possible, and let their climbing do the talking.

I know this guy back east who used to hang his way up a 5.10 on bolts every now and then. He was a real nice guy, which is why I hung out with him in the first place-a lot of folks out west are "pro-ho's" who break out the shoe-lickin' tongue every time they run into someone who's had their 15 minutes in a mag; I find that good company and sponsored climbers are often, but not always, mutually exclusive. This guy I hung out with was a class act and fun to hang with, and wasn't on the same number-hungry trip I was into at the time-I simply enjoyed his company, putting up some TRs for him, catching some belays here and there. Much later I visited home and saw that he had gained about a hundred pounds. He had gotten a job at the gym, and when I asked him how his climbing was going, he told me about the 13d he just set at the gym, the routes he'd been chipping on Belle Isle (if you're from Richmond, that's all you need to know), and that he could toprope a 5.8 here or there but he was setting more than climbing these days.

Reminds me of some other folks I know, minus the good company part. I can see the benefit of putting up routes for other people to send; I recognize that all my projects aren't staying virgin forever while I wait for my ankle to approach normal size and have no problem with it. I and others I know question the validity of bolting routes that the bolter couldn't climb with a scissorlift and a hot-air balloon to carry the drill.

The inescapable fact about all of this is that two individuals don't like each other very much, and have differing opinions about leave no trace ethics, and aren't interested in resolving things. I don't take the insults too personally because they're off the mark. Other than the fat thing. I am, very, VERY fat.

Recently there was a discussion on another thread about ethics, and when a certain Vegas route developer was being painted as the soul of decency and ethics, I brought up a concreted on hold in the Compton Cave that everyone seems to know about, but don't want to discuss.

[Slanderous comments deleted by Forum Moderator]

Sorry to those involved for getting personal, as I did. It's a lot easier to put a laundry list on MP (even easier on rc.com) rather than just call someone up and tell them that they are a bumbler. The lesson I, as well as several others apparently need to learn is:

the easy way is quite often not the best way.

Apologies for the ill-considered opinions; the facts still stand.

Fact #1 "To whom much is given,much is expected"
My home has always been open to climbers. We feed them,shower them, wash their clothes, let them sleep in beds. We have hosted oodles of people, some famous, most not. As for being a boot licker.... I kinda doubt it....ask around

Fact #2 As for being in the wash in my van; The climbers who are packing these tales to you were parked in the wash right beside me.That wash has been used as a road for years. On the USGS maps it will show it as being a road.
Fact #3 The generator was new...it didn't leak.

Fact #4 As for the gear at the Cathedral, you threw Todds' box out of the cave. When I asked about the box, you said you did it. You were proud to say ,"If Mr Perkins has a problem with me cleaning up the crag he can come talk to me." Kate, The girl who was there can testify to this. I also believe that you have bragged and bitched on this website about cleaning up crags and "removing" other peoples gear. In my book that's stealing.

Fact #5 I don't chip, don't need to. If you don't like my routes then don't climb them. Other people do. In the end they will form their own opinion and probably won't even care who bolted it. All they will care about is if it is a good line that is safely bolted. Which I strive to do above all else. If you see an unsafe bolt on one of my climbs feel free to move/remove/replace as nessecary. I'm not so egomaniacal as to think my bolts are sacrosanct. Also, before you criticize bolters you should consider bolting something yourself. You'll soon realize how much hard work and expense is involved. Then maybe,just maybe you won't be so quick to say hateful things

In the end there is this:
You come to the table with empty hands and an open mouth spewing hate.
You are not satisfied with climbers,their routes,how hard they climb,the reasons why they climb or the way they keep their crags.
You have contributed nothing actual to climbers except your opinion on how they should act.
You have turned this thread/website into a hateful place.

The only true "chip" here is the one that rests squarely on your shoulder.
Have a nice day
.

When you're right, you're right. What I said before about owning up to my faults in action:

I pissed all over your reputation based on secondhand information. Based on what those folks told me, coupled with talking with a BLM rep, I thought I was on the mark. If that generator wasn't leaking, I apologize. If you aren't chipping routes, I apologize. I didn't notice you arguing with me about some of the other things that I've pointed out, but I apologize for them, too.

As to my lack of climbing and bolting experience, neither of us is going to learn anything to change our minds about each other on this "Promised Land" page, and it doesn't help the community at large for us to air this personal laundry in public. I threw the first punch and it wasn't a gentlemanly thing to do.

I've been bolting routes for about a year now. I'm not too public about what I'm working on because I don't want crowds when I climb and I put up routes for myself and my friends, not the community as a whole. Asserting that I'm a good/bad person because of the numbers I tick is stupid, childish, and quite common on this site. I think you are who you are, and it's really sad, especially as I never see guys who climb 5.14 talking this way-it's the ones that want to, but don't. If your criticism is that I'm not an active new router, it's not valid. If your criticism is in my poor climbing performance, good luck to you in your criticism. I'm not getting provoked into a public ticklist to appease anyone.

Let's let this shit drop because Arrow is as it is, I won't be getting out to see for myself what the damage is or isn't for quite a while, and, with a sincere apology right here for everyone to see, you either accept it like a gentleman and move on, or not. It's not changing the world or either of our climbing attitudes in any case.

Over and done.

how do you use concrete (and i assume you're talking about portland cement or a varient mix with portland as its base) to reinforce or build a hold? How is this better than your typical epoxies?

Please, Killis, please enlighten us to the great panopoly of wisdom you've gained from your one year of "route development".

Clown azz

Among other things, 1) the sport climbing community in Las Vegas has an inordinate amount of fools and dysfunctionals, most of whom have little personal skills or judgement, but correspondingly excellent internet connections, and 2) excellent routes on featured rock go up well and quickly if you have the good sense to substitute creativity and hard work for a chisel.

Good to know you're still out there hating, keep up the consistent work.

I'll be your huckleberry.

PS-from your profile:view all *0* contributions. Niiice.

Here's an additional thought: if your heartfelt desire is to see me end up in the hospital, why not ask me on a mandate so we can scrap it out just like in all of those *hot* dreams of yours?

Maybe you can find someone to give you a ride if it's too far away to get on your pogo stick, big talker. At least some of the twits on this site can threaten me using their real names. You should hook up with them, they could teach you a thing or two about manliness. Love the pony tail, by the way. By the way, if you do decide to meet up to duke it out, I'll be generous and let you stand on a phone book so you can feel like you match up in height, if not in backbone.

Love and kisses, bright boy!

(PS-to everyone who doesn't know this punter's history with me, just laugh at the inanity and silliness of it all, that's what I'm doing)