It's been a while since I did the route so I might remembering wrong but isn't it a clean fall line, just slabby? I don't think 10-15' slab falls are generally considered "bad" falls.

OH NO. That one was all Larry....I'm just the schmuck he talked into leading it.
...and "stinker" is putting it lightly. Jesus, someone could die on that pitch. I'm actually not even kidding!

josh

I've climbed for a while in RR and been involved in a few FAs.
I have never placed a bolt at RR but have usually been glad to clip the ones that were there. I am even OK with the retrobolting that took place on one of my FAs because apparently you would have died. I can't really speak about the sport climbing scene as I hardly ever go to the short cliffs. Besides something about walls festooned with pre-hung draws really really grates against my personal sense of aesthetics.
However I am not real hip on the excessive use of bolts which seems to be the prevailing ethos of the day. Putting up a route is making a statement. It is a creative process. It is in fact a Performance Art with the stage and choreography a near constant and only the performers changing. No two casts of characters will ever experience the same performance. This is particularly true of the experience of the FA team. Once initially performed the opening night magic is gone. Subsequent ascents can have adventure but not mystery.

WRT protecting the climbers of the future. No matter how many bolts you put in, it will still be possible for someone to hurt themselves.

Does the fact that I have climbed routes with bolts mean I don't get to say adding bolts to existing routes sucks? I hope not.

I like routes of all kinds, and hope that all kinds live in a climbing utopia of happiness and fluffy clouds.

But to change the existing character of an established route is a different matter entirely.

Just because someone clips a bolt doesn't make them a hypocrite in this discussion.

"Words like "national treasure" come to mind. It is one Red Rock route on the progression for the traditional climber:
Cat in the Hat
Solar Slab
Tunnel Vision
Crimson Chrysalis
Epinepherine
Dream of Wild Turkeys
Sour Mash
Eagle
Dance Prince of Darkness
Levitation 29
Note: several of these routes are considered classics of North American rock climbing."

From earlier in this thread, see the above list of routes. Now consider who opened the bulk of them.

You can debate on whether Urioste routes aren't classic all you want, but, my bet is you'll lose that debate.

Cheers,

Brian
your statement doesn't make sense to me because I am not sure if I have climbed a route with a "new" bolt, how am I reasonably supposed to know.

I would be the first to say that even if I liked a route in it's "new condition" doesn't mean that it should stay that way.

I have done Rock Warrior and I noticed bolts on it, and I also noticed that I clipped them. so my question is the same, if I clip them do I not get to complain when new ones are added?

I guess I shouldn't climb anything on El Cap then, because most of those routes have sprouted chicken bolts.

Brian
your comments cover up the nice guy I'm guessing you are. maybe not though....
any way...are you implying that I must read every guidebook written, consult everyone I know, contact the 1st ascenionist...all to make sure I've boned up on the history of a route that I just want to go climb. Sounds like fun!

huh?
Where do you stand on this issue?
take the bolt out or leave it in?
by the way I apologize for the tick list remark. there is no correlation between how hard someone climbs and the validity of their opinion.
However, I wouldn't know where to begin to read in to what you are talking about, because I am having trouble understanding your position.

unless it is the 1st ascensionist it doesn't matter.
and furthermore in this case, it was placed illegally
I'M OUT!
if anyone else has a three day weekend coming up, ENJOY!
Brian, enjoyed it, maybe again sometime.

Brian, you're being deliberately provocative, which may not be appropriate for this particular thread. Given the context, it would not be surprising if people read you into the Andrew Carson camp.

Are you implying that the extra bolt added to "Cat in the Hat" is okay?

Answer the question you raise (perhaps in another thread): when is it okay to add a bolt to a route? or more specifically: when is it okay to add a bolt to an already popular, classic route?

I think no one is arguing that *no bolts* should be allowed at Red Rock. But if, as Larry pointed out, there is an apparent contradiction between regulation and the wilderness experience, there is also a contradiction between trying to create "popular" routes and the wilderness experience. Maybe you'd like to argue that these canyons should never have been designated "wilderness"? For better or worse, that designation changed things.