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By Ari Salomon
Mar 30, 2010
dates: April 6, 7 or 8

we want to hire a local crag expert to bring equipment and accompany us on a 1day climb. direct us to routes, set up top ropes etc. we will be at a family reunion in las vegas next week.

we are one experienced climber and 1 former gym rat. we have not climbed much in a couple years.

prefer 5.7 - 5.9
multi pitch would be great
we have gear but don’t want to bring too much.

another ideal location would be one where there was scenic hiking so we can brink the wife and 3 year old and they have somewhere to enjoy the desert environment while we get a few good hours of climbing in.

we’ll pay @$60, negotiable. more if transport from las vegas is included.

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By chad umbel
Mar 30, 2010
On the Leaning Tower, Yosemite.
Call Jackson Hole Mountain Guides Las Vegas. Hiring anyone without a guiding permit is like taking food off of someones plate not to mention illegal. Literally.

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By J. Thompson
From denver, co
Mar 30, 2010
Trundling a death block. Photo by Dan Gambino.
chad umbel wrote:
Call Jackson Hole Mountain Guides Las Vegas. Hiring anyone without a guiding permit is like taking food off of someones plate not to mention illegal. Literally.


Yep.

Well said Chad.

josh

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By Jason D. Martin
Mar 31, 2010
Jason
Please also consider the American Alpine Institute.

1-800-424-2249 or info@aai.cc

The BLM takes pirate guiding very seriously...

Jason

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By Anson
From berkeley, ca
Mar 31, 2010
taking food off someone's plate? i can't afford to pay thousands of dollars to get guide certified and i'm hungry, too. really my stomach just grumbled.

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By Jason D. Martin
Mar 31, 2010
Jason
When people pirate, or try to hire pirate guides, it does hurt those who have gone through the proper channels.

It won't be thousands of dollars. It will be quite similar to what you have pitched to pay...

Check out the American Alpine Institute's rates at:

aai.cc/ProgramDetail/redrock/

JHMG has very similar rates.

Jason

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By Ari Salomon
Mar 31, 2010
i see. well, we are very experienced so we don't need a guide in the traditional sense. more of a climbing 'buddy' who knows the area well. not sure what kind of legal distinction there is but if it means we bring our own equipment then we can do that.

i'll look at that url. thanks for your comments.

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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Mar 31, 2010
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "...
Ari Salomon wrote:
i see. well, we are very experienced so we don't need a guide in the traditional sense. more of a climbing 'buddy' who knows the area well. not sure what kind of legal distinction there is but if it means we bring our own equipment then we can do that. i'll look at that url. thanks for your comments.

The distinction is made as soon as you pay a person, according to the parks.
$60 isn't enough to motivate most people anyway. Perhaps offering to buy someone a nice dinner and a beer in town might help you find someone who is simply nice enought and willing to show you around though.

Never been a problem for me to go somewhere and find folks that will show me around for free. I offer to buy the beer, carry the gear, and put some gas in the tank.

Not everything has to be about the money.

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By Tom T
Mar 31, 2010
Is that truly illegal or just a dick move to hire an unofficial guide? Is there a specific point at which it become illegal?

I find it hard to believe that kicking someone a few bucks for local beta could be a crime. Can't a gym employee teach people to belay without AMGA certs? Is that pirating too? I can't fathom being arrested or ticketed for showing someone around and taking some beer money in return. Just to be clear though; I'm not advocating pirate guiding or anything really. I'm just asking cause I don't know.

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By Jason D. Martin
Mar 31, 2010
Jason
JLP wrote:
This is especially common with euros bringing someone from their homeland who speaks their language.


And Eruos are regularly caught by places like Denali National Park, which will allow them to show up and then deny them access to the mountain. Tons of money spent on plane tickets without ever even getting on the mountain...

Those of us who are guides have spent considerable time going through the proper channels to be legitimate.

From a legal perspective, the person who hires the pirate guide is unlikely to get in trouble, but depending on the land manager, the pirate guide can get in a fair amount of trouble. It could be as little as a fine or it could be something that presents considerable legal problems. For example, an American who pirate guides in Canada could get permanently expelled from the country.

And FYI, in places like Red Rock, guides regularly get experienced climbers who are just looking for solid partners that know the area.

Jason

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By Julius Beres
From Boulder, CO
Mar 31, 2010
Rewritten
Tony B wrote:
The distinction is made as soon as you pay a person, according to the parks. $60 isn't enough to motivate most people anyway. Perhaps offering to buy someone a nice dinner and a beer in town might help you find someone who is simply nice enought and willing to show you around though. Never been a problem for me to go somewhere and find folks that will show me around for free. I offer to buy the beer, carry the gear, and put some gas in the tank. Not everything has to be about the money.


Clearly hiring an unlicensed guide in public lands is illegal (actually it is a felony since it is on federal land). Although the libertarian in me thinks that you should be able to hire whoever you want, I'm not advocating breaking the law.

That being said, at what point are you hiring someone? Isn't offering to buy them dinner and a beer in exchange for a service the same thing as paying them a few dollars?

Also, I doubt anyone would "work" for $60/day. Would it be legal to say "Hey, we are going to Vegas for a few days and would like to climb. We don't feel like bringing all our gear, so would someone be willing to rent us their gear for $60/day... oh, and if you know the area, we would appreciate it if you would show us around."

I realize this is a tangent, I'm just curious exactly how commercial activity is defined. After all, I assume if someone offered to rent my rack for $60/day, I wouldn't be committing a crime if I took the money (and of course reported it on my taxes) and they then took my rack to public lands.

Along those same lines, if you take the guy's money and then he gets hurt during the trip, do you automatically assume any legal liability you would not have had if you were just climbing with a buddy? After all you didn't sign any contract (nor did they sign any waiver).

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By Mark Limage
Apr 1, 2010
...this seems to be as good a thread as any to lose my MP Forum virginity. For years now, I've just been passively watching from the sidelines, immensely enjoying the Killis posts, and monitoring topics that may be pertinent to my job or my employer.

When I saw this thread posted two days ago, I wondered if anybody was going to bite. I certainly wasn't going to touch it. But now that some of the experts have weighed in, well, hell, I kinda feel like stirring up some shit.

How can you take seriously some clueless climber "looking to hire a local crag expert" that offers $60/day and more if you provide transpo? You can't. Ari, you get what you pay for. I hope you have a safe, enjoyable day in the Red Rock and for sure, "multi-pitch would be great"...a heck of a deal. I wonder what you do for a living.

Maybe you're the Ari Salomon I just googled that is a "graphic designer and fine art photographer working in San Francisco." Maybe you could design a website for me. I'll pay $10, negotiable. more if really cool pictures are included.

I'm sorry Ari. That was too easy. The real issue here is Pirate Guiding. And this thread actually contains some pretty good information. Unfortunately, there is a little chunk of misinformation presented by my competitor that really bugs me.

Jason, I appreciate your involvement in the Red Rock and you always conduct yourself as a professional. And I believe you have the Red Rock in your best interest, in spite of being a major player in the annual, out of control mob scene that is the Red Rock Rendezvous.

However, if you truly think that "the BLM takes pirate guiding very seriously," I have to ask, where is the evidence? Give me just one little nugget. Really.

You know what. It ain't there. The Red Rock is the mecca for pirate guiding. Most land managers don't do squat. Denali NP is the exception. Hell, the AMGA turns a blind eye to illegal guiding. In my 13 years of guiding in the Red Rock, I've encountered no less than 8 "certified" guides (and 1 instructor/examiner) doing the bandido thing in the Red Rock. I have no recollection of the scores of pirate guiding parties that I've encountered over the years. It used to bug the shit out of me. Not any more. I find it absurd and at times comical. Three years ago I was guiding Frogland and was sandwiched between a pirate guide from YMS and another pirate guide from the East Side. On any given day, during high season, in the Red Rock, I would bet my left nut that bandido guides outnumber permitted guides 2 to 1.

So, PLEASE, don't offend those of us who know better, with a ridiculous comment like, "the BLM takes pirate guiding very seriously."





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By kevin murphy
From Lafayette, Colorado
Apr 1, 2010
road
Im surprised people are so upset. It's kind of like renting a crashpad. Lighten' up Francis. Come to Boulder, I'd be happy to. Its not the money, its showing nice people a beautiful area. For a tip. I hope someone will help the guy out.

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By Jason D. Martin
Apr 1, 2010
Jason
Mark,

I too respect you as a great professional in the area...but man, way to burst the scare bubble!

Seriously though, I don't know if you've had much interaction with the new BLM permit administrators, but they have been combing the internet for people advertising illegal guiding in RR. They regularly email us and ask us if we have a relationship with one company that's advertising RR or another. After having some conversations with them, I feel like they take the situation far more seriously than previous land managers.

To be honest, I'm pretty impressed by the level of concern that they've shown over the issue. Whether that means they have any power to stop it is a different story...

Jason

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By Jfoley
Apr 1, 2010
Hey guys,


Well I guess Mountain Skills Climbing Guides better chime in also.

Mark, it has been a pleasure working with you over the years and I concur with you on the fact that private guiding is happening and much of it is by AMGA certified guides. I also love your funny point about the "prospective clients" making a living.

Jason, I enjoyed meeting your lead Vegas guide, Scott Massey, this weekend. I was Attending the three day Access Fund Summit in Red Rocks and he was there for one of the days. I agree with your comment about the BLM's active pursuit of Pirate guiding in the Red Rocks.

Thanks to both of you for responding with informative information.

Mountain Skills climbredrocks.com/ is one of the original permit holders for The Red Rocks, and has maintained this permit for over 20 years. I think there have only been about five companies allowed to guide in The Red Rocks in this time.

For the past 20 years, Mountain Skills has followed stringent protocol,including adding Workers Compensation insurance and increasing our Liability insurance policy for the Vegas area. Mountain Skills has in those years maintained a solid working relationship with our BLM representatives. I have found The BLM to be very active in pursuing pirate guiding in The Red Rocks. I have personally had several phone calls and e-mails asking me if Mountain Skills had certain guides or groups in the Red Rocks on any given day. I have also been asked to remove more than one guide from the Mountain Skills guide's list because they had been suspected of private guiding.

Before commenting on paying for guiding ask yourself what you do for a living and ask yourself what it would be like if you offered you services for free or a third the cost. Professional Climbing guide services offer a viable product which cost almost as much to LEGALLY maintain as it makes in profit.

Remember folks, if you really don't need to hire a professional guide, Jerry Handrin's new guide book is excellent and very informative complete with comprehensive photos as well as written descriptions to the climbs in Red Rocks, only costs a few bucks, and should be all you need to find your way around.

Anybody interested in hiring professional, legal, guides for the Red Rocks area, please feel free to call or e-mail us.

phone: 702-325-1616 climbredrocks.com/

Most importantly, have fun and be safe!

Jay Foley

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By Stone Nude
Apr 15, 2010
When dumb people have disposable income, hilarity ...
Wow, can't believe I missed this one. I find it interesting that we're getting into the touchy subject of what the BLM can, will, and is trying to enforce. I remember there was a preliminary bolt count project going on a couple of years ago, the guys hired to do so openly spoke of telling the BLM what they wanted to hear, going climbing for fun and billing hours, and fudging info from the (then) highly unreliable collection of Red Rock Guidebooks.

I see guides working all the time in Red Rock that are not associated in any way with the permit holders here. Most don't even bother to BS or squirm when confronted. For better or worse, it happens. Mostly worse, it seems. And last time I saw a BLM official outside of a parking lot at Red Rock, he was chucking baseball sized rocks at bushes to scare out the birds...which didn't exist. And YES, he was in uniform at the time. Wacky and sad. Guy looked like he belonged on an iron lung more than a trail.

Mark, if you're not careful, you'll end up casting pearls before swine. Take that one from my personal experience. I do appreciate my fan letters, though.

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By tradryan
Apr 15, 2010
Skis!
Killis Howard wrote:
Wow, can't believe I missed this one. I find it interesting that we're getting into the touchy subject of what the BLM can, will, and is trying to enforce. I remember there was a preliminary bolt count project going on a couple of years ago, the guys hired to do so openly spoke of telling the BLM what they wanted to hear, going climbing for fun and billing hours, and fudging info from the (then) highly unreliable collection of Red Rock Guidebooks. I see guides working all the time in Red Rock that are not associated in any way with the permit holders here. Most don't even bother to BS or squirm when confronted. For better or worse, it happens. Mostly worse, it seems. And last time I saw a BLM official outside of a parking lot at Red Rock, he was chucking baseball sized rocks at bushes to scare out the birds...which didn't exist. And YES, he was in uniform at the time. Wacky and sad. Guy looked like he belonged on an iron lung more than a trail. Mark, if you're not careful, you'll end up casting pearls before swine. Take that one from my personal experience. I do appreciate my fan letters, though.


Word. This is something of an odd topic for me to comment on because I'm one of the guys in uniform so to speak (for the record I'm not a boob) but last time I was in Red Rocks, just a month ago, I asked the gate attendant about which annual pass would best suit my needs. He said some things that didn't make sense, so I asked another question, he said some more things that made less sense, so I tried to explain to him some basic factual points (the forest service is not under the dept of the interior, etc.) this is when he explained to me that I had no idea what I was talking about. In the end I gave him $20 and drove away... what can you do. But yea, it's a weird world out there, and not all feds are morons. Some definitely are.

As for poaching a climbing guide... there are 10^9 more important issues to worry about.

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By Aaron S
Apr 15, 2010
Enjoying beautiful Red Rocks.
Jfoley wrote:
Before commenting on paying for guiding ask yourself what you do for a living and ask yourself what it would be like if you offered you services for free or a third the cost. Professional Climbing guide services offer a viable product which cost almost as much to LEGALLY maintain as it makes in profit.


Well if someone could do my job for 1/3 the price then I would expect people to go to that guy. Now a certified climbing guide is almost certainly going to be worth more than a random $60 hire off of MP; you get what you pay for. It's Ari's money (and life) and either way he wants to do it doesn't bother me.

FLAG


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