Munters and Rope Twisting

In this thread there is some discussion of belaying directly off the anchor with a munter hitch on multipitch routes. Apparently this is quite common in Europe. I have used this method a few times, generally when I've ended up without a belay device due to forgetfulness or change of plans. I've found the munter to be an easy and comfortable way to belay, but there is the rope twisting issue... This is a known munter issue, and it does seem to twist the rope pretty badly. Enough so to prevent me from wanting to use it on a regular basis.

So, to those that belay off the anchor with a munter on a regular basis, what's the deal with the rope twisting? Is it just something you accept and put up with, or are there ways of mitigating this issue?

if you do a second, upside-down munter above your main munter, it will untwist your rope as the main munter twists it.

kidding though, ive never seen anything that helped prevent this. but heres a free bump

JCM wrote:In this thread there is some discussion of belaying directly off the anchor with a munter hitch on multipitch routes. Apparently this is quite common in Europe. I have used this method a few times, generally when I've ended up without a belay device due to forgetfulness or change of plans. I've found the munter to be an easy and comfortable way to belay, but there is the rope twisting issue... This is a known munter issue, and it does seem to twist the rope pretty badly. Enough so to prevent me from wanting to use it on a regular basis. So, to those that belay off the anchor with a munter on a regular basis, what's the deal with the rope twisting? Is it just something you accept and put up with, or are there ways of mitigating this issue?

Yes, there are ways to mitigate the twisting issue:

First, whenever possible, when pulling in rope, and especially when lowering, keep the brake and load strands as parallel as possible where they enter the hitch. Unnecessarily large angles between these two strands exacerbate the problem significantly.

Second, when lowering, using a super-munter rather than a standard one will also dramatically reduce twisting, though it sometimes produces too much friction to be conveniently used in low-load scenarios (i.e. when lowering just a single climber).

I use munters all the time, and by being mindful of these two things, avoid the vast majority of the twisting I hear so much about.

Maybe pulling the climbers side rope more than the brake side so the munter is looser and there is less kinking of the rope on the way through. I don't use a munter unless it's an emergency so I haven't put a lot of thought into the issue.

I don't understand this twisting issue. I use a muenter almost every time I bring up a second. Fat and skinny singles and doubles. The only time I've had twists was when rappelling on it.

SThal wrote:I don't understand this twisting issue. I use a muenter almost every time I bring up a second. Fat and skinny singles and doubles. The only time I've had twists was when rappelling on it.

Yeah, it seams lowering and rappeling cause twists, un-weighted ropes not as much. Am I missing something?

I too have wondered this and would love to get some pointers as I find the munter to be the most comfortable way to bring up a second of the harness. I think it only causes twisting when it is loaded, hence why belaying a 2nd up who doesn't fall doesn't seem to affect the rope. Perhaps some of the Europeans can enlighten us (I'm calling you Jim Titt) since they use the munter often and don't seem to have issues.

Something I've thought of that might help is tying the munter in the opposite direction each time so you essentially end up twisting the rope in one direction and then in the opposite direction, but I've never actually tried it.

IIRC in Munter rope runs tangentially over self, when the load is applied quite a bit of torque is causing the rope to twist.

Super Munter is supposed to keep the rope from twisting

Derek Doucet wrote: Yes, there are ways to mitigate the twisting issue: First, whenever possible, when pulling in rope, and especially when lowering, keep the brake and load strands as parallel as possible where they enter the hitch. Unnecessarily large angles between these two strands exacerbate the problem significantly.

^^I've observed this as well..

eli poss wrote:I too have wondered this and would love to get some pointers as I find the munter to be the most comfortable way to bring up a second of the harness. I think it only causes twisting when it is loaded, hence why belaying a 2nd up who doesn't fall doesn't seem to affect the rope. Perhaps some of the Europeans can enlighten us (I'm calling you Jim Titt) since they use the munter often and don't seem to have issues. Something I've thought of that might help is tying the munter in the opposite direction each time so you essentially end up twisting the rope in one direction and then in the opposite direction, but I've never actually tried it.

Push the rope through rather than pull if you see what I mean. And keep the knot real slack.

Jim Titt wrote: Push the rope through rather than pull if you see what I mean. And keep the knot real slack.

If I'm understanding this correctly, it's not really practical. I take it you don't use the munter then?

eli poss wrote: If I'm understanding this correctly, it's not really practical. I take it you don't use the munter then?

I´ve used and taught the Italian Hitch (Munter) since 1967.

There's actually a variation of the munter called the ";;monster munter";; that provides more friction (easy to lower without a prusik backup) and also undoes the coils. It's basically a second munter tied around itself in the opposite direction. It's pretty awesome actually, check it out.

youtu.be/6ulTTrhfCvs

Christian Black wrote:There's actually a variation of the munter called the ";;monster munter";; that provides more friction (easy to lower without a prusik backup) and also undoes the coils. It's basically a second munter tied around itself in the opposite direction. It's pretty awesome actually, check it out.

The "monster munter" is the same as the "Super Munter" discussed above.

Christian Black wrote:There's actually a variation of the munter called the ";;monster munter";; that provides more friction (easy to lower without a prusik backup) and also undoes the coils. It's basically a second munter tied around itself in the opposite direction. It's pretty awesome actually, check it out.

You still need to use a backup when lowering with the super (monster) munter. The purpose of the prussik is not to add friction but to prevent a loss of control should something happen while lowering.

RangerJ wrote: You still need to use a backup when lowering with the super (monster) munter. The purpose of the prussik is not to add friction but to prevent a loss of control should something happen while lowering.

Do you backup an ATC/tube-type device?

Didn't think so.

sgt.sausage wrote: Do you backup an ATC/tube-type device? Didn't think so.

If you are using it to lower someone, yes, you do.

RangerJ wrote: If you are using it to lower someone, yes, you do.

that's ridiculous.

RangerJ wrote: If you are using it to lower someone, yes, you do.

LOL

POLL: Raise your hand if you Prussik every lower on your ATC/Reverso/Whatever ...

Anyone?

Anyone? ...

Beuller ... ???

sgt.sausage wrote:POLL: Raise your hand if you Prussik every lower on your ATC/Reverso/Whatever

Never, ever, in 45 yrs of climbing.

eli poss wrote: that's ridiculous.

+1