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Mt. Lemmon Sandbags and Sandbags that should have an R or X.
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By 1Eric Rhicard
Nov 1, 2011
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
You need to have climbed the route clean (without falls) at least twice before posting it up. It cannot be a single letter grade off. the route needs to be two or more letter grades off. Sometimes a route seems harder when onsighting because you mess up sequences so I want you to post it if you have done it enough to be sure it is a sandbag. You can also post up routes that should have an R and do not.

I will start.
40 to Life at prison camp. Rated 5.9 is more like 10-

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By kBobby
From Spokane, WA
Nov 1, 2011
Sorry, Eric. I am pretty sure there aren't any sandbags on Mt. Lemmon.

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By Hendrixson
Administrator
From Tucson, AZ
Nov 1, 2011
Enjoying 'Ground Affects'.
I agree on 40 to Life but I only climbed it once.

Admiral Throckmorton on The Druid is probably not 5.8.

Bogeet Mondoo on Obscure Rock may not be 5.11. I haven't redpointed it.

While it is fun to discuss I try not to get too caught up in grades. As long as the route is safe it only hurts one's ego. A better question might be what spicy sandbags are out there.

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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Nov 1, 2011
Toofast
Damn. Now I am going to be thinking of climbing all day again. Nice work Eric!

:)
geir

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By 1Eric Rhicard
Nov 1, 2011
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
Good point John, title changed. I am not that concerned about numbers either. I am not looking to start a quibble fest here just want to know which ones folks think are badly bagged. If a lot of folks think Bogeet is bagged as I do we will rate it 11+ in the next guide.

Jimbo and I were on two routes at the Boneyard which Jim thought were 9. When I looked in the book they were actually rated harder and were within a letter grade so I didn't need to change them.

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By 1Eric Rhicard
Nov 1, 2011
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
The reason I think folks need to have climbed things more than once is that it is easy to miss holds or sequences. We need only look at all the beta that has made routes at the Orifice easier after hundreds of runs.

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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Nov 1, 2011
Ooops...
Slippery When Wet (PG13 gear), Rabbit Tracks, Stoner's Boner and Mistaken Identity more like 9+/10-, the start of Old Man is not 5.9 and hard to protect, Admiral Throckmorton and the one next to it, the 5.9 to the left of Old Man also has non 5.9 start and hard to protect..

Hai Karate is easy to go straight up at the start and make it 5.10 instead of diagonal left and 5.7 at the start

Lady of the Knight at Chessmen more like 10+ and very crappy swing into corner fall potential

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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Nov 1, 2011
Ooops...
Unless you learned how to place bomber gear instantly, by definition any lead when you're starting trad can be spicy.

So knowing whether you'll be sandbagged on grades could be important to your safety, not just your ego.

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By NickMartel
From Tucson, Arizona
Nov 1, 2011
Warden at Jailhouse. Now its not that difficult of a route but it is MUCH harder than the other 7's at jailhouse/Alcatraz/ect... And the toughest part is right off the ground (from ground to 2ed bolt), and the route starts from that ledge that is itself 6' off the ground but that you would hit and bounce off of to the ground if you fell.

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By Charles Vernon
From Tucson, AZ
Nov 1, 2011
Reefer Madness at the Reef had an R in Steiger but not in SQL II. I've done it twice, leading all the relevant pitches, and think it still deserves an R for pitches 2 & 4. It takes some micro-nuts, which would have been around in the early 80s, but the newer fancy micro-cams really don't help.

Only done it once but I believe very strongly that you should take out the notation that Charadras is "a good first 5.7 gear lead"!

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By Alex McIntyre
From Tucson, AZ
Nov 2, 2011
Christian wrote:
Slippery When Wet (PG13 gear), Rabbit Tracks, Stoner's Boner and Mistaken Identity more like 9+/10-, the start of Old Man is not 5.9 and hard to protect, Admiral Throckmorton and the one next to it, the 5.9 to the left of Old Man also has non 5.9 start and hard to protect.. Hai Karate is easy to go straight up at the start and make it 5.10 instead of diagonal right and 5.7 at the start Lady of the Knight at Chessmen more like 10+ and very crappy swing into corner fall potential

I would disagree with Old Man. The beginning corner is not harder than other Mount Lemmon 5.9's from that era and it has several textbook stopper placements from 10 feet or so up to the top of the clean corner. I remember being really comfortable with how bomber the stoppers were.

Mistaken Identity is also definitely not 5.10. I haven't been on the others you listed so I can't comment on those.

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By jbak
Nov 2, 2011
A steep climb too.
Alex... I'm glad you said it so I don't have to.

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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Nov 2, 2011
Ooops...
Alex McIntyre wrote:
I would disagree with Old Man. The beginning corner is not harder than other Mount Lemmon 5.9's from that era and it has several textbook stopper placements from 10 feet or so up to the top of the clean corner. I remember being really comfortable with how bomber the stoppers were. Mistaken Identity is also definitely not 5.10. I haven't been on the others you listed so I can't comment on those.


Old Man: Key words being "of that era" and 10 feet up,sheesh..Not exactly the best place to deck from 10 feet up and start rolling and bouncing down the hill, taking your belayer with you, don't you think?..I've personally witnessed a 5.12 climber fall off the balancey opening moves..The start can be protected right away w a very small Black Alien type cam or possibly steel micronut, but these are pieces someone building their rack might not have..

My general attitude about all of this is: "You can make your own decisions, but in general it's better to have this info and not need it, than need it and not have it."

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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Nov 2, 2011
Toofast
Christian wrote:
My general attitude about all of this is: "You can make your own decisions, but in general it's better to have this info and not need it, than need it and not have it."


I agree Christian!

Geir

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By jbak
Nov 2, 2011
A steep climb too.
I guess I just don't get the move-by-move piece-by-piece mentality. Probably because most of my early climbing was either no-guidebook or very vague guidebook. You climb the rock, not a book. If the pro isn't there, you have a decision... suck it up, or back off and live another day. As I used to tell my partners (way back then) "climbing is a exercise in JUDGEMENT above all else."

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By Hendrixson
Administrator
From Tucson, AZ
Nov 2, 2011
Enjoying 'Ground Affects'.
Lady of the Knight should probably be rated 10+. I've climbed it the requisite number of times.

Heelium should probably be downgraded to 12- but I have yet to redpoint it. Somehow I did it on TR but never lead.

These are minor quibbles.

Does Squeezing the Lemmon use the PG-13 rating? Most of the spicy routes I can think of could potentially earn a PG-13 but not an R.

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By Ian Cavanaugh
Nov 2, 2011
I must say this is a pretty ridiculous post. Most of these routes are being up graded by half a grade. What is the big deal? maybe you should all just leave the grades as they are and climb harder. Just a thought. I mean are these routes really that sandbagged, a letter or two is not a bad sandbag, or are they true to grade and people just havent spent much time climbing in other areas around the country/world. I know personally I would rather climb in an area know for hard ratings rather than soft ones. Besides when you finally do step out side of your home town and go and climb at some world class areas, you will be more ready and will not be so disappointed that all the climbs there are so "hard" or "sandbagged". Its just a number, dont worry about the plus or minus at the end of the grade and just climb.

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By mcarizona
From Flag
Nov 2, 2011
" 40 to Life at prison camp. Rated 5.9 is more like 10-"

Sorry I dont qualify because I don't climb there (always looking for a way to get there though). Anyway 5.9 is harder than 10- right??

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By Eric D
From Gnarnia
Nov 2, 2011
Born again on the last move of the Red Dihedral, high Sierras.
I personally don't like the us of PG-13 ratings. R and X are great in that you can either get seriously hurt or you can die, very straightforward. PG-13 enters a grey area which is part of all climbing, the fact that you might not get protection when you want it.

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By dcohn
Nov 2, 2011
Main Gate seemed run out because I had to pull solid 5.8 moves pretty high above sketchy gear. It is possible I was off route too as the line wasn't clear to me.

Helm's Deep probably deserves an R until the bolts are replaced. Without them it is still pg-13. EDIT: I saw they were replaced. Thanks Guys!

Old Man seems like a fair 5.9 to me. The start could arguably be pg-13 but the hard move is right off the ground and any danger should be obvious to a competent climber.

I know the original rating of Bogeet was 11+ and this seems fair to me due to the pump factor.

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By Dan Cucci
Nov 2, 2011
+1 for 40 to Life and for Admiral Throckmorton - the roof move isn't 5.8.
Corporal Punishment, next to AT, has a decent run-out below the roof on easy ground, but is more like 5.8 than 5.9.

Makin Muffins on Swim Fin has a pretty high first bolt with a potentially bad fall. The aptly named Ego Donor always seemed like a tough 5.9 - could be a bad fall if you mess up going to the bolt above the ledge.

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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Nov 2, 2011
Toofast
Ian Cavanaugh wrote:
I must say this is a pretty ridiculous post. Most of these routes are being up graded by half a grade. What is the big deal? maybe you should all just leave the grades as they are and climb harder. Just a thought. I mean are these routes really that sandbagged, a letter or two is not a bad sandbag, or are they true to grade and people just havent spent much time climbing in other areas around the country/world. I know personally I would rather climb in an area know for hard ratings rather than soft ones. Besides when you finally do step out side of your home town and go and climb at some world class areas, you will be more ready and will not be so disappointed that all the climbs there are so "hard" or "sandbagged". Its just a number, dont worry about the plus or minus at the end of the grade and just climb.


Hey Ian,

Part of the reason for this post is for gathering info for the guidebook. It's pretty important, I think, to have that information right for out-of-towners.

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By 1Eric Rhicard
Nov 2, 2011
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
Ian Cavanaugh wrote:
maybe you should all just leave the grades as they are and climb harder. Just a thought. I mean are these routes really that sandbagged, a letter or two is not a bad sandbag, or are they true to grade and people just havent spent much time climbing in other areas around the country/world.


Most of the guys who posted climb 5.12 and some of them have climbed 5.12 trad from here to Europe and Asia. But I guess 12 isn't that hard for you.

The main reason I asked the question, is that we just had someone deck and get seriously injured on an old school moderate. This was par for the course years ago when I started climbing in 1975, but times have changed. A couple of letter grades might not be a big deal for a badass such as yourself but for beginners it can matter.

As I said I am not looking to quibble over a letter or two but I would like to know which routes people think are sandbagged so I can put that information into the next guide to the area. In the last guide I warned people that many of the older routes have scary unprotected sections if they were significantly easier than the hardest sections of the route. These days they might get an R but in the past they didn't. My thinking is that I will have the same standard on all routes.

As always (haha) I agree with Baker. Good judgement is what it is about.


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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Nov 2, 2011
Ooops...
In terms of protecting beginners, the runouts on the easy stuff at Hairpin Left Hand wall are ill-advised.

The 5.7s or 8s that have a 12-15 foot runout on 5.5-5.6 ground, there are at least two.

Whoever left their quickdraw there at the last bolt before the runout, PM me and identify it and you can have it back.

edit: besides the main lefthand wall, there was a bolted 5.8 up around the corner past the 5.10s, with a big runout on the easier ground and super crappy fall potential

also, one of Scott's 5.10s on Obscure wall, big runout near the top w ledge fall potential ( i posted under that route)

also, some of the climbs in the new area Ben put up to the left of Gumby Wall, (Beetle Bailey wall or something?) ie 5.8 climbs and runout where it's 5.6 to the anchors

All this is FYI, I believe in general on sport routes it's easier to figure this stuff out before u commit to it and safer in general.

Also, one area to look at to highlight in the next guidebook is which routes are mixed, I know there was a deck at Prison Camp because of someone not knowing this, even though it was in the book. Not sure how much easier to make it than how you had it, but also just FYI.

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By 1Eric Rhicard
Nov 2, 2011
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
More comments from Mr. Cavanaugh:

Regarding some climb he did.
"Last time i was out there i pulled off the jug after the crux, making the route about a letter grade harder. what that grade is exactly ill let you know when i actually get it clean."

If a letter doesn't matter why mention it?

This was attached to some photo of a project.
"there is now a bolt on the face. this dramatically decreases the runout, bad fall and the face crux move. it can be clipped easily once on the ledge." Seems like he is trying to be helpful to others by giving them more information.

Those of us who need to climb harder and get out of our own back yards should do as he does. Oh wait, that is what we are doing.

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By 1Eric Rhicard
Nov 2, 2011
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
Don't take this personally Ian. My real goal here is to get Jbaker to blow coffee out his nose and on to his keyboard.

FLAG


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