By mark bowyer
Dec 12, 2012
| You may be right , I might be too optimistic ? I think it'l take a while to really see what the outcome will be mayby several months who knows ? But one thing I definatly agree with is keeping the standard to what it has been . Don't hesitate jump someones case for being noisey ,bringing large groups and leaving trash behind ect. Especially large groups! Personally I would love to go there more than I have but I just can't shellout that much in gas and still get by . But till then I hope for the best and ecourage anybody I hear of going there to be respectful and impact consous if they go to Moores. | 
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By Pierre de St. Croix
Dec 24, 2012
| Great discussions on the true need of a new guide for an amazing crag! What about a reissue of the 3rd Ed. Of the Kelley guide? That way the adventure would still exist & it would be comprehensive. Maybe with the author's permission a side author could update pertinent approach/descent beta. Having a permanent pit toilet, a water spiget that works when unlocked, and obvious trails, all seems pretty user friendly already IMHO. I don't think photos with routes traced over or a photo overview is really necessary as the crag isn't nearly as spread out like the NRG or RRG.
I do wish there was more access info to the variety of crags in the high country. Thank god for grimm's guide, but that being said, adventure more, but use caution.
I also wish I had a photo of my mug the first time I rapped off golden earring! That thing is bomber! Makes you think, which I like. |
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By Adam Paashaus
From North Carolina
Dec 24, 2012
| Moore's Wall is a great crag. The adventure there is as much about the steep nature of the routes and somewhat tricky gear placements (while pumping out!) as it is about finding the anchors to get back down with. I guess I don't have a strong opinion regarding the guide, but I will say that the adventure there should not change. I vote to add no new anchors and leave the cliff-line the way it is. I think it is up to Erica to portray the cliff as the serious climbing destination it is, to keep those who are not ready, away. I think she has a good idea of the nature of the area and think she will do a good job of that. |
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By Cragmama
From North Carolina
Dec 24, 2012
| Adam - thanks for the vote of confidence. I think you summed up my intentions pretty well.
Pierre - The Kelley 3rd edition was and is a fantastic resource, one that I have relied upon a lot for both personal use as well as research for the new guide. As far as Moore's goes, the new guide will have about the same amount of routes listed as the Kelley guide, but with more information regarding starts of routes and descent beta. I know this thread in particular is only about Moore's, but FYI - other sections (especially Crowders), will include routes that haven't been documented in any guide yet. There has been a lot of rebolting and trail maintenance at Pilot since Jeff's PDF guide has been published, and the Stone section will have updates as well as more detailed approach info for the North Face. Each area included has been included for a reason, and due to their geographical proximity, they all make sense to include in the same guide. Each area is completely different from the other, but I know plenty of people (myself included) that climb regularly at all 4 areas, depending on the season.
One thing that I think will make this guidebook in particular unique is the inclusion of so many historical and anecdotal stories, quotes, and essays. The Carolina climbing culture is a very colorful one, and one of my main objectives was to preserve that. Old-timers will be able to flip through it and remember the "old school days," and newcomers will be well-versed in the who, what, when, where, and how's that got their favorite crags where they are today. Just my two cents FWIW...which might not be much. ;) Merry Christmas everyone! |
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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 24, 2012
| In 2010 my wife and I went to Laos with no guidebook and no language skills. We had a great time climbing and stayed safe as well. Not only that but we actually learned quite a lot about the local ethics and history.
If I can do that, I don't see why a Virginian or North Carolinian can't get in their Subaru and drive a few hours to Moore's Wall with no more than the information that is currently available. |
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By mark bowyer
Dec 24, 2012
| Not to be a jerk Ryan , but not all of us have the finacial backing to go to foriegn countries to climb , I somewhat resent your statement . I rely on plasma donation money and overtime to support my climbing occasionally . And I have have a learning disability involing math that stems from a childhood brain injury . So college education is out of the question . I also lost a job to china and another to illegal labor so not all of us are fortunate as you seem to be . However I climb because if I didn't life would not be worth sticking around for . Be thankful you are fortunate enough to have a good job and a family . My point is some of us do have to consider driving expenses and amount of acutual climbing. Reguardless of what anyone else thinks ,does ,says , I will climb wether I have a belayer or not ,and yes I have grounded before so be it I actually hope I die climbing . No offense intended I just ask that you understand climbers come from more then just one place in our society and economy. |
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By Javier L
From Asheville, NC
Dec 24, 2012
| I've had the pleasure of meeting and climbing with both Ryan and Erica and I can't say a bad thing about either of them. I can tell you that both appreciate climbing immensely, despite their differing opinions on this topic. Both of them have a passion for climbing, as you and many of us do, Mark. I can also tell you that Ryan is far from what you may believe. Unless you won the lottery recently, Ryan? Mark, look around these forums or ask around. I think you're just getting caught up in this thread. In the end, these two people probably have a lot in common when it comes to climbing. It just so happens that this topic isn't one of them. |
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By Brad Caldwell
From Deep in the Jocassee Gorges
Dec 25, 2012
| Yawn!!! Do your thing Erica...there's a lot of folks supporting you and only a few squeaky wheels that wont stop squeaking. If you crave "adventure", just don't buy the guide! |
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By mark bowyer
Dec 25, 2012
| I beleive I have meet her at pilot last spring as well the owner of MistyMountian they were extremely cool in person . I would say most of the climbers I have meet in Nc I useually get along with quite well . I do think the internet in general gives birth to alot of misunderstanding or misinterpretation at times which can stirr up opinions pretty easily . have a good christmas ,and a good season wish yall the best . |
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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 25, 2012
| Javi, thanks for the kind words. Wish I was around to climb with you guys. I haven't had a core group of climbing buddies in NC for a very long time. Would have liked to be more involved with you all, but that is not the way life went. Maybe in the future...
mark bowyer wrote: Not to be a jerk Ryan , but not all of us have the finacial backing to go to foriegn countries to climb , I somewhat resent your statement . I rely on plasma donation money and overtime to support my climbing occasionally . And I have have a learning disability involing math that stems from a childhood brain injury . So college education is out of the question . I also lost a job to china and another to illegal labor so not all of us are fortunate as you seem to be . However I climb because if I didn't life would not be worth sticking around for . Be thankful you are fortunate enough to have a good job and a family . My point is some of us do have to consider driving expenses and amount of acutual climbing. Reguardless of what anyone else thinks ,does ,says , I will climb wether I have a belayer or not ,and yes I have grounded before so be it I actually hope I die climbing . No offense intended I just ask that you understand climbers come from more then just one place in our society and economy.
Mark,
I am sorry to hear that you have a hard time getting out to climb. I understand your frustration. Take a look at petrol prices in the UK compared to the US.
Regardless of what kind of financial situation you might think I'm in, I'd say a pretty large percentage of all climbers have to think very hard about their travel expenses, myself included. And I certainly don't have any form of financial backing other than the money I've earned through my own hard work so please don't think that it's any easier for me than it is anyone else.
The difference is, some of us value the mishaps and the getting lost part just as much as we value the climbing. If, in fact, you are so in love with climbing that you hope to die doing it, then I would think you'd understand exactly what I mean. If that is not the case, and you are only worried about how many pitches you can get up and descend without any confusion, then I suggest you re-examine what it is you love so much about climbing and try and find places that you can do exactly that.
Regarding the book - I've made it known that I don't think we need one. I've also conceded that it is probably not going to cause any real harm to Moore's Wall. If I thought it would, I'd be doing a lot more than bitching about it on the internet. And I'm certainly not in the "adventure" camp. I am not naive enough to think that I'm having some grand adventure every time I climb at Moore's. Hell, I go there to redpoint. Not much adventure left for me there. But becoming that familiar with the place WAS a grand adventure and I think a new book filled with glossy photos and detailed instructions of how to navigate the crag may take that adventure away from the next generation of climbers. They'd be better off learning through experience, not a book. Something we've all said here on MP.
I'm not out to get Erica. She knows that. We've met at least once and I know how nice of a person she is and how passionate she is about NC climbing. She must have known what would happen when she decided to write this book. In fact, I'm sure she appreciates some honest feedback and opposition. I think she'd tell you that it would have felt a little strange had she not received some opposition.
As I said up thread, I'm sure the book will be of very high quality and I do not intend to cause any trouble when it comes out. I have not and will not attack Erica as a person or an author. But please don't expect me to stop being the "squeaky wheel." I haven't changed my mind. We don't need another guidebook to Moore's Wall. |
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By Jake Jones
From The Eastern Flatlands
Dec 25, 2012
| Ryan Williams wrote: The difference is, some of us value the mishaps and the getting lost part just as much as we value the climbing. If, in fact, you are so in love with climbing that you hope to die doing it, then I would think you'd understand exactly what I mean. If that is not the case, and you are only worried about how many pitches you can get up and descend without any confusion, then I suggest you re-examine what it is you love so much about climbing and try and find places that you can do exactly that.
I would imagine some still value those things, and would like to get as many pitches in as possible. There is a gray area. It's not strictly one or the other. Some people can be so in love with climbing that they save up money for a few months and try to get a few extra days off work if possible so that they can get out to their favorite places and actually climb more than they search. Perhaps some of these people still want to die climbing. I'm not entirely sure I would want to subject anyone to my death while climbing- as most of them are fairly gruesome and emotionally taxing on those left to clean up the mess and break the news to families. Maybe I just really really really like climbing and don't love it. I think you can like adventure and still have one without getting lost and frustrated. I'm sure no one that finds rap stations and routes their first try will say "Well fuck, we came to Moore's for an adventure, but we only did some climbing in a fairly remote area and the route scared the shit out of us. We didn't get lost at all. That sucked." |
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By RockyMtnTed
Dec 25, 2012
| If you guys like getting lost and bushwhacking around so much then dont buy a fucking guidebook. Print out some of the mountainproject.com pages and go for it.
A guidebook should tell you how to get to the climb easily, what else am I paying $40 for? I like road trips too for the sense of adventure but I dont purposely buy shitty maps just so that I can get lost. What a dumb idea.
Either way I am not afraid to admit that I hate going to a new area and bush whacking around for an hour cause the guidebook sucks. Sorry but I am not a fucking bum like a lot of you on here. I work full time and am in school full time, I only get a few climbing trips a year and when I go on a climbing trip I want to spend it climbing(and adventuring on the rock) not walking around the bushes with a useless $40 book i just b ought. Who are you dumbasses? |
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By mark bowyer
Dec 26, 2012
| I think Ted has is on point ! You guys bicker too much . If this represents how most of the users of the site are ,then I'm canceling my account. I'll stick with the people I actually meet outdoors . Oh and yes I did read some of the previous pages but its soo long its like a novel and impossible to keep up with . I think this is a great time to leave the conversation ,besides I have some turkeys to go hunt ;) |
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By Jake Jones
From The Eastern Flatlands
Dec 26, 2012
| RockyMtnTed wrote: If you guys like getting lost and bushwhacking around so much then dont buy a fucking guidebook. Print out some of the mountainproject.com pages and go for it. A guidebook should tell you how to get to the climb easily, what else am I paying $40 for? I like road trips too for the sense of adventure but I dont purposely buy shitty maps just so that I can get lost. What a dumb idea. Either way I am not afraid to admit that I hate going to a new area and bush whacking around for an hour cause the guidebook sucks. Sorry but I am not a fucking bum like a lot of you on here. I work full time and am in school full time, I only get a few climbing trips a year and when I go on a climbing trip I want to spend it climbing(and adventuring on the rock) not walking around the bushes with a useless $40 book i just b ought. Who are you dumbasses?
Dear Ted,
You have a valid point but sometimes it gets lost in your tactless assholery. Ryan is the only person that's expressed outright opposition to a guidebook- others have not exactly been for it, but Ryan has been the most vocal. And that's fine. Everyone sees his point, and it is a valid one, just as others' points were valid FOR a guidebook. The point is that it has remained a relatively civil discussion until you enter it. For the record, I agree with you in principle, but settle down a little. If people want to get lost and search clifftops for rap stations, that's their perogative, and has no bearing on you.
mark bowyer wrote: If this represents how most of the users of the site are ,then I'm canceling my account.
LOL. If this is your best attempt at English (please read quote below), then please, by all means, cancel away.
mark bowyer wrote: I think Ted has is on point !
mark bowyer wrote: You guys bicker too much .
What? You come into a fairly civil discussion about a topic, misperceive someone ENTIRELY, tell them you resent what they say, bash the people that are local, saying they won't even look you in the eye in your FOUR TIMES there in TWENTY YEARS (I have met nothing but friendly and helpful people there in my three visits in under two years). Then you go on to rant some more about a topic that you admittedly haven't read up on in its entirety- because four pages of paragraphs is just too complex and hard to follow and waaaaay too much to read.
mark bowyer wrote: Oh and yes I did read some of the previous pages but its soo long its like a novel and impossible to keep up with .
YOU sir, bicker too much. You've done more of it in two or three posts than anyone has done in this entire thread.
mark bowyer wrote: I think this is a great time to leave the conversation
I couldn't agree with you more. |
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By NCRob83
From Chapel Hill, NC
Dec 26, 2012
| Ok so I have to step in, I hear a lot of you talking about you don't get time to climb and you want more pitches when you do. If you really love climbing that much you will make a life style change. What I worry about with Moores is access, the last thing we need is more traffic coming out and impacting the environment or trying to stick in bolts, add anchors, or try and change the descents in anyway. Maybe less time spent on mountain project and more time training would allow you to get in more pitches. |
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By Jake Jones
From The Eastern Flatlands
Dec 26, 2012
| NCRob83 wrote: Ok so I have to step in here. I here a lot of you talking about you don't get much time in to climb and you want more pitches when you do. If you really love climbing that much you will make a life style change. What I worry about with Moores access, the last thing we need is more traffic coming out there and impacting the environment or trying to stick a bolt, add anchors, or try and change the descents in anyway. Maybe less time spent on mountain project and more time training would allow you to get in more pitches.
Why? Why does it have to be black and white? This way or that? People with kids can love climbing, be weekend warriors and still need to have a viable career because they want to send their kids to good colleges. Why is it either change your whole lifestyle, or be happy with getting lost and spending a ton of time searching for an established rap anchor? Most of life is lived in a compromising manner, and filled with gray area this is no different.
Because I can't quit my job and be a dirtbag, or just pick up and move to be closer to crags, I must be a pro bolt, anti-environment, descent changer? That's the picture you're painting. I disagree. It is entirely possible to really love climbing to the point of obsession, to live five to six hours away from it or more, to save up, take a few trips a year, and to be a conscious steward of the lands you visit, and maintain the established ethical standards of the area, AND to want to be able to maximize your time on the rock. Why is this such an inconceivable notion?
If a new guidebook brings the gumby hordes to Moore's with miles of webbing and battery drills in hand, I will be the first to eat my words and get out there and uphold local ethics. Is this really a likely possibility though? Are there not enough locals and also people like me to keep this from happening in the unlikely event that a new guidebook is sufficient enough to draw accident prone morons to an almost strictly trad area?
It's not like Moore's is an unknown area and the new guidebook will reveal some well kept secret. It has been an easily approachable crag replete with easy and moderate classics for many years now. To me, thinking that a guidebook that augments the info that is already out there is going to change everything for the worst dramatically is unlikely.
People's circumstances are their own circumstances. You saying "well, you clearly don't love climbing that much if you can't change your lifestyle and/or move closer" is like me saying "well, you clearly are unpatriotic because you're selfish and your life revolves solely around climbing and if you really cared about your society, you'd go back to school and get a career and really contribute." Both make equally as much sense as the other. Again, there is a gray area, and it is quite reasonable. Just my opinion. |
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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 26, 2012
| Jake I really appreciate your respectful way of conversing about this topic (and others in the past). I think you were right on for calling out a few randoms who weren't at all respectful and really have no idea what is going on in here anyway.
I think at first people like me were worried about the new book bringing "gumby hordes" but the more I've thought about it and talked about it I realize that this is not going to happen. My point has mostly been that the current guides are pretty good. Some people seem to get the idea that I like bushwhacking around for hours on end. Thing is, I NEVER had to do that at Moore's. The info that is currently available is good enough to keep me from having to do that. The place that could really use a new guide? Linville Gorge!
Anyways, the main reason I replied to this thread AGAIN was to say thanks for your respectful and well thought out responses.
I also wanted to give you a heads up: While I know the last paragraph of your response to Rob wasn't directed at him, you picked the wrong person to talk to about patriotism and hard work. The guy put his life on the line for us in the Army for a big chunk of his adult life, and has worked relentlessly to acquire the skills he needs to have a great career as an engineer. On top of that, he is the most psyched climber I've ever met and probably (definitely) climbs at Moore's more than any of us do.
I know you didn't mean any harm to him, but I wanted to say a few things about Rob because I know he won't do it himself.
Now I'm going back to work (yes I do work). It's the busiest day of the year and time to make some money! |
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By Jake Jones
From The Eastern Flatlands
Dec 26, 2012
| Ryan Williams wrote: Jake I really appreciate your respectful way of conversing about this topic (and others in the past). I think you were right on for calling out a few randoms who weren't at all respectful and really have no idea what is going on in here anyway. I think at first people like me were worried about the new book bringing "gumby hordes" but the more I've thought about it and talked about it I realize that this is not going to happen. My point has mostly been that the current guides are pretty good. Some people seem to get the idea that I like bushwhacking around for hours on end. Thing is, I NEVER had to do that at Moore's. The info that is currently available is good enough to keep me from having to do that. The place that could really use a new guide? Linville Gorge! Anyways, the main reason I replied to this thread AGAIN was to say thanks for your respectful and well thought out responses. I also wanted to give you a heads up: While I know the last paragraph of your response to Rob wasn't directed at him, you picked the wrong person to talk to about patriotism and hard work. The guy put his life on the line for us in the Army for a big chunk of his adult life, and has worked relentlessly to acquire the skills he needs to have a great career as an engineer. On top of that, he is the most psyched climber I've ever met and probably (definitely) climbs at Moore's more than any of us do. I know you didn't mean any harm to him, but I wanted to say a few things about Rob because I know he won't do it himself. Now I'm going back to work (yes I do work). It's the busiest day of the year and time to make some money!
I appreciate military service. I myself am a combat veteran that served in the USMC and was stationed- of all places in Camp Lejeune, NC (if only I had been a climber then, right?). My response to Rob certainly is/was not intended as an attack on him in any way. It is intended as a defense of my own situation. I have seen several of Rob's posts in prior conversations and I have no doubt that he is sensible, intellectual, and climbs hard.
My point (via my analogy) was simply that making blanket statements or insinuations that lend themselves to a polar point of view isn't always the best approach. I have a set of circumstances not entirely unique to some adults that have made poor decisions in their youth. I have a kid here that lives with her mom. It's not that I can't leave or make a career change, it's that I choose not to so that I can be a good father that's available to his kid. I am working hard to further my career, so I don't have a whole lot of money and time to take climbing trips.
Perhaps Rob is more industrious, more creative and just plain smarter than I am. That notion certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility. I'm just trying to say that it is entirely possible to be a weekend warrior, AND uphold tradition, AND to want a little bit of help so that you can maximize the few trips you get and squeeze every bit of climbing out of the precious time that one's circumstances allow. That's all.
I agree with you on pretty much all points. The first time I went, I was armed with only a mental picture and a small printout from MP. I still found the routes I wanted to get on. I did spend a lot of time though looking for the routes, and finding the descent trail/gulley. No biggie. However, if two hours is spent on logistics, that's two hours that could have been spent on a route. It is largely a moot point for me now, as I have been a few times, and have a pretty good mental layout of the area- except for the Meat Puppet, which I haven't actively sought out yet. I am still not opposed to a new guidebook however. I am largely indifferent now.
I thank you too for your civility and your well articulated and warranted point of view. Both are appreciated.
Rob, if you take offense to my response, I apologize, it was not intended as a personal affront to you in any way. I am just presenting my perspective. |
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By NCRob83
From Chapel Hill, NC
Dec 26, 2012
| I take no offense to anybody's post, I love you all! Climbers of all grades, types, and styles. Ryan Williams is one of the coolest men I hav ever met in my life and I still await the day he returns to NC. You guys have to understand Moores is simply just Moores. Nothing will ever be done there without controversy and argument. I think very highly of all of you that are posting and im glad to see such an interest in climbing and it's culture. Moores is sick, bottom line...
P.S.
I have dug a trench across the approach trail filled with snakes, fire, and A.I.D.S. |
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By Spri
Dec 26, 2012
| I dont think it is allowed on mountain project for you guys to break the conversation down into a "I respect your viewpoint" ending. Impossible!!!
:P |
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By Jake Jones
From The Eastern Flatlands
Dec 26, 2012
| Spri wrote: I dont think it is allowed on mountain project for you guys to break the conversation down into a "I respect your viewpoint" ending. Impossible!!! :P
That's how we do it in the southeast. |
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