Ditto again. It's that some 'guides', often the inexperienced ones who have only climbed 14 routes at DL, take their crowd to those same 14 routes every trip up there. And again, the area has tons of favorites that are packed in together closely. I remember when the Iowa Mountaineers used to come up there for decades and run a great clinic or class in the most out of the way areas. You didn't see them, or hear them. Respectful and well disciplined they were with their Univ. of Iowa groups throughout the year. Weekends yes, guides need to hoof it up to the the West Bluffs or Horse Ramparts to get away from the crowds.

Oliver, try reading the thread again.
And, there ARE alot of guides out there that are NOT certified, except for the "Jackass" certification, which they utilize repeatedly while hogging climbs that their clients shouldn't even be on.

At DL we share ropes and all leaders have right of way, that's the rule and it has always been that way.

Maybe guides should take their hordes to the well concentrated short easy moderates on the west bluff, the major and minor mass areas, the quarry rocks, and countless other crags that most climbers ignore because all there is, is a bunch of easy short climbs.

Early bird gets the worm! We at VE Chicago have arrived at the top of the east buttress as late as 8:00 a.m. on a Saturday or Sunday, not a soul in sight, not an anchor or top rope set up in sight! We happily share the crag, and have gracefully allowed trad climbers the right of way! Those of you on a non-guided trip could just as easily head to the west bluff or another lesser used/lesser quality climbs when you find the east bluff crowded. If you've never been to other crowded climbing areas (such as Joshua Tree in high season), you've never experienced the "take a number and wait your turn" climbing scene. So get up early! Enjoy the sunrise!

Jay, is there any kind of official approval process for guides and guide companies to work at DL? Or is it a free for all?

I believe at Josh there is a strict policy on guiding, and other NP's as well.

I'm not sure. I know that back when I was guiding, it was a free-for-all. It may have changed since then, but I'm not the person to ask.

I think an important distinction should be made between legitimate guiding and the pony rides I often see being done at the lake -- there is a huge difference between the two.

I'd have no problem with a lone, experienced, and competent guide, with four or fewer clients hanging out inconspicuously on the East Rampart.

All too often, however, I see inexperienced and incompetent "guides" (often just glorified gym rats) with group numbers in the ten and greater range dropping Brinton's Crack and Boy Scout. Which wouldn't be so bad if there weren't fifteen loud, obnoxious, and poorly supervised 12-14 year olds in the group. There are much better places to take groups of this nature. I know this because I worked at Dairyland with Jay, and we took groups like this to far more appropriate spots, some of which he mentioned.

The odd thing was that the kids had a blast because they were isolated from the general public and as such could be left to just be kids without annoying anyone outside of the group leaders, and Jay and me.

If you're going to call yourself a guide, and use your "stewardship of the sport" as a justification, then you should be a good steward by knowing your way around your chosen venue so that you can peacefully exist with the rest of the climbing community.

Call me crazy for expecting guides to go out of their way to have as good of a relationship with the climbing community as possible and promote sustainable use of the resource by not taking large groups to already overcrowded areas. It just seems that if your livelihood depends on the sport maintaining popularity and your clients having a good time maybe you should be the leaders in these areas.

All of that said, if you're reading this and thinking, "Maybe I should make a change, but I don't know my way around the park well enough to do that." I'd be happy to show you some nice, quiet and out-of-the-way places in the park that are great for taking large groups.

Cheers,
James

8 AM? Early? Geez, when we had the pleasure of camping at the magnificent south shore campground waaay back in the 70's and early 80's, it was up at 5:30 and on the rocks by 6AM all summer long. Not just to beat the loud oversized groups of unsupervised kids, but to beat the humidity and heat of July and August. By noon we were off the cliffs, relaxing on the diving rocks along the tracks in the lake. Back up to climb again a few hours just before dusk. This also allowed us to miss most of the group chaos through the middle of the day. Sure miss that campground setting.

I would like to think that Oliver981 being an excellent guide and experienced climber surely is only taking groups around four in number. this thread is really about those who are bringing in the 10-15 person groups and having two guides shouting over the top of virtually unsupervised teenagers. this activity should be done at a gym.

As for the free for all, ? it really seems to be. I know that many wish to steer clear of "authority", but let's face it. "the man" knows we're there. he sees us walk with our gear and knows what we're doing. these guys aren't idiots and they are not oblivious. the park officials do leave the main paths. my understanding is that there is a don't ask don't tell policy that's fine and all, but the large out of control groups are the groups that have negative impact on all activities in the area and affect the parks numbers, these guys can make all climbers and all climbing seem bad to the officials and the public in general . it only takes a couple rude people to make all in the group seem bad. The "public" and likely "the man" can't always tell the difference between a badly guided group and just bad climbers.

there are many places where the parks people and the climbing community can exist nicely together and with full understanding of one anothers needs and goals. this is done in a lot of places and can help improve the experience of all involved. What prevents that here?

-lquid

One place the park people, hikers, and climbers blend together is that tight turn in the Balanced Rock trail at the base of Watermarks. The 'alternate' route that cuts across below that spot is gaining foot stability and might just become the real trail soon. Most climbers do their best to move aside and belay from off the steps or trail. But again, it's finding a large (=more than 6) group parked there, gear strewn all over that makes for a bad impression. 3 ropes on Watermarks wall alone and a bunch of noob's blocking off the trail just about ruinis any access or hiking. That is one area where guided groups should NOT be allowed at all.

There are a lot of various points in this thread and will try to answer to some of them.

First off, to make things clear, I am a guide for VE St Paul and I have both taught lessons and run groups at Devil's Lake. I agree with 'first come first serve' policy that(to my knowledge) exists in every single climbing area in the United States. If any of you think that bringing the Wisconsin government or park system into the equation is a good idea then I don't think you have a very good understanding of that government and park system. Once you ask the government to meddle on something seemingly reasonable like a maximum of 6 group policy, they will set a whole lot more rules you won't like.

Jay Knower explained Dairy Expedition's policy of not guiding East Rampart and I think there is merit to that and deserves thought but I reserve the right to do what I need to do to A) keep my clients safe and B)give them a good experience.

On the other hand, Jay's idea that guides are doing it for the "$$$$" is preposterous. Dude- you guided. Did you do it for all the sweet cash that was rolling in or because you wanted to share something special with people?

As far as large groups (10-15) of kids, those kids have just as much right to climb and be there as any of us. It is a priority of mine to teach them to respect nature and climbing ethics. I have ended groups early when they refuse to show that respect. Large group are the only economically feasible way to get children to experience climbing in nature and not in the artificial environment of the gym.

I think the major problem is that Devil's Lake is the main climbing spot for a combined metropolitan population of almost 10,000,000 people. I learned how to climb in the Red River Gorge and most days we'd only see a climber or two. It's annoying as hell when you come up to a climb you've been planning on doing and you see a horde of people but it's not their fault and it's not the guide's fault.

This thread started as a thread about ethics. Perhaps a clear ethic can be developed and agreed upon. I have to claim ignorance to whether there is a Devil's Lake climbing coalition. If not, there should be. Reasonable people (like many of the people who posted here) need to get together to make the park usable for everyone.

Russell Hobart

well stated

I do however think that the MN approach regarding Shovel Point should be mentioned as a very good piece of work on the part of the state. MN is not well known for an extremely lenient DNR, but they may be "reasonable".

call me an idealist if you wish.

I don't understand why any outdoor educator would want to take the group they're leading to an area known to be the most popular. If you want to create a better experience for your clients and a better teaching environment choose one of the other areas. They are just as good as the east bluff and when talking about beginner climbers there is no difference between an area such as the east bluff or a place such as birthday rocks, except that at the east bluff you are adding to the congestion. (Also the approach is easier = happier kids)If there is this one area that is obviously the most popular crag in the area why would one WANT to even take a group there? If you know other climbers frown on the practice then simply go to one of the other 40+ areas, simple.

In the boundary waters of Minnesota large groups are not allowed, no more than four canoes are permitted to even come together at portages. Most people who visit the boundary waters do so for the wilderness experience, this would certainly be ruined by a large unruly group of children. There are thousands of places to canoe and camp in the northwoods but nothing quite like the boundary waters and the Quetico solely because of the etiquette set there. We probably all climb for different reasons. Personally I enjoy the solitude of climbing in a peaceful outdoor setting. Quite honestly it is a bit like my church (would you bring your group of 30 boy scouts to the temple for a service?). I assume that many who have posted here feel similar to myself in that the actual climb is only part of the climbing experience and what can't be forgotten or undervalued is the tranquility of Devil's Lake and the wilderness experience. What climbers like myself are asking is to have the east rampart set aside for those who climb to escape the noise and distractions of everyday life. Large groups, especially those who don't understand climbing etiquette, can take away or even ruin the experience of climbers who are searching for solitude. So without questioning your motivation, your knowledge, or integrity climbers like myself are asking guides not to bring large groups to the east rampart out of respect for our experience.

I'm glad I found this prior to taking a group out. Here's an little test for the group of commenteers:

I am planning to take a group of 5-10 classmates out for a day of climbing and relaxing next monday, with friday as a rain day. Both I and another classmate have experience leading groups of beginners, though not at the lake. I specifically chose a weekday to avoid crowds, and I was already planning on avoiding the East Rampart. I was thinking Railroad Amp, with Birthday Rocks as a backup. Does anybody foresee a problem with this plan, or have any suggestions to avoid problems?

Thanks - Carey Dachik

PS - Eric, it's good to know you're still stirring things up. Look me up the next time you roll through town.

Sounds like a good plan with consideration about groups. Horse Ramparts has lots of fun stuff too, and just above to the right of Birthday Rocks. How good are the climbers? RR.Amph has some tough climbs and that very slippery mud access to set up the routes. Last Saturday I was victim to an all day group parked on the trail right under Watermarks and Balanced Rock Wall. Pretty hideous conditions for the rest of us due to their equipment sprawl.

What a mess! Thank goodness climbing at the Lake is usually so much less contentious than these discussion forums!

"Don't ask - don't tell" !!!! You all realize that this cliche refers to something that was made illegal? A very poor analogy to climbing, which is legally enshrined in the State Administrative Code.

Guiding is unregulated, and the DNR would prefer to keep out of it (note the crucial distinction between "unregulated" and "illegal"!). The subject of guiding regulations was discussed at the climber-DNR meetings that were held 10-15 years ago to discuss State policy. It was climbers who brought the subject up. The DNR passed, mainly because trying to regulate climbing guides would have implications for how they regulate hunting and fishing guides.

There are lots of rules for guides on Federal lands; the details vary from property to property. That has nothing to do with Devils Lake.

Guides can use any rock formation at the Lake, but the better guides and clubs have used out-of-the-way crags for decades. It is much easier for a guide to manage her clients and site if there are a minimum of random climbers wandering through. And it is generally a better experience for beginners if there are fewer distractions (but I think an intermediate class could benefit from using the East Rampart ... maybe).

It is my impression that in the last 5 years, very young guides have begun using the East Rampart and Balanced Rock on a regular basis, where for a long time I only saw Boy Scouts. I blame whoever is hiring, training, and overseeing these guides.

The problem for guides and club leaders is that, as climbing has become more popular over the last two decades, what were once remote crags now get used regularly by recreational climbers. Stettner's and Misery on the West Bluff were good places for classes, the Guillotine on the East Rampart. I have often used the lower levels of Major Mass, but they are hard for inexperienced instructors to manage. I've used Horse Rampart a lot in recent years, although I always feel bad for individual climbers who trudge up there to find us monopolizing the place, so I go out of my way to invite them to use empty ropes. East of the Quarry and West of the Quarry have been by far the best place for me to take groups in recent years - no one else ever even shows up. These are hard for inexperienced instructors to even find, but a *professional* guide should be able to sort it out very easily.



Aside: "lead climbers have the right-of-way?" What a bizarre and silly idea. Climbing routes are like narrow hiking paths - whoever is already on it has priority.

Doug: I totally agree that the influx of new, young 'instructors' is part of the problem these days. If they took a 3 day climbing course and have set a toprope, they feel they can list themselves as 'well experienced' in their job resume? Some of the credit(blame?) goes right to the whole indoor gym lifestyle that has introduced climbing quickly. Most older experienced climbers took a LONG time to get where they were, through patience and many many trial and error attempts to climb real rocks, not manufactured boulder problems on plastic. They took long road trips to various nationally known traditional climbing areas, usually involving mountainous areas, dealing with backcountry access, altitude and severe weather, besides not having a good guidebook for a reference. Seasoned climbers had the time to think through, to review what they had done in past efforts, to recall what the rocks taught them in person. Jut being a hardcore 5.12d sport climber does not make you a quality instructor for new climbers.

Few new young (under 30?)climbers-turned-guides today can claim to have anything like that for a background. The community outreach programs that brought kids into the wilderness turned to the few experienced local guides to give their kids that first time climb. Now, they seem to think they've found qualified guidance within thier own organization because somebody there took a 3 day climbing course and claims to be capable. There's so much to the phrase about 'life experiences' that makes sense.

I learned to climb back in the Dark Ages, at the tender age of 15. On my third trip out I was "instructing"....

I don't blame people for being young and inexperienced, or even old and inexperienced. I blame the people who hire them without giving them training and setting standards. Why would a guiding company want to use the East Rampart or Balanced Rock when the smallest investment of time would provide both the guide and the clients a much more relaxed and focused experience?

Post up here if you know the name of the companies doing this, so we can send interested beginners to someone else!

I think the majority of climbers confuse climbing hard numbers with knowing a lot about climbing. It seems to be a common human foible that we substitute something easily measured for other vaguely related things that are much harder to measure or judge.

an informed friend who witnessed said events on Sat, Aug 15th at Balanced Rock Wall says it was Apex that day. Anybody who can confirm? I witnessed the event, but didn't ask the name. They set up by 8AM and then walked back down from their fixed ropes, to go meet group I suppose. Still there at 1PM, with gear, packs, shoes, etc. spread out across the entire access trail area.

As a guide for apex I can say that we try to go to the west first. I wasn't working last weekend because I was on Rainer and this week in the backcountry of the northern cascades and therefor can't confirm or deny apex at balanced. I can say that we uphold the DL policy of open ropes, and if you want to get on a rope, ask. If you want to lead a route, ask. Don't assume that because were on it you can't be. We explain to our clients the open rope rules here and tell them it's one of the best parts about the lake. And don't assume that all guides under 30 are inexperienced all our lead guide have their wfr and amga, and many of us have mountain, backcountry, and international experience.

I own Apex, and I admit that we made a mistake in pre-setting for a large group at balanced rock the other day. No one was in the parking lot so we thought we would drop ropes and make our day go faster. I personally talked to every climber that I saw in the parking lot when we walked down and invited them to go hop on our ropes. (Since I am a local climber originally, I try hard to be helpful to the scene, not a jerk) About 8 or so climbers took us up on the free ride and were integrated well, they seemed very happy. I may have missed some people. It was somewhat of a disaster of a spot/group and we will not be going there again, especially on a Saturday. My apologies if we wrecked anyone's day. We try to only take private/small groups up the CCC, 5 or so people. So if you see our trailer in the CCC it's probably only couple people. - don't freak out. - If that's against ethics, well... there are 2,000 climbs at the lake and I guess I can go elsewhere... There are MANY other guiding groups that don't have a labeled vehicle, so if you see large groups please don't assume they are with us.


From my experience the main problem is groups/camps/schools that go once a year and the leaders only know one spot. Many of them now sleep at the top of Misery to "get the spot." It's pretty crazy.

Personally, Guiding is nuts business. Insurance, organizing, and training is a tremendous task. I've been directing at Devils Head for the last four years during the winter, I still tend bar and work at the UW rescue station just to pay bills. My wife is about to have a child, and I thought a run out lead was scary. I'm not in this industry for the $$$, I'm just trying to afford to do a good service. And If Apex isn't guiding people, then who will be?

There are things that could be done via permits. If the permit price was raised then groups that only go once or twice a year may choose to use an outfitter and thus (hopefully) have a more experienced guide with better understandings of ethics.

Requiring certifications to receive a permit, higher insurance standards, or limitations on the groups size per permit, etc. are all issues that could be discusses with DNR. The don't ask, don't tell policy may interfere with all of that though.

I'm all for change, but I think we can police ourselves, politely without politics.

The good news in all of this is that there are 2,000 climbs at the lake and plenty to go around. Also, there is one company that is at least trying to do good and hopefully always improving.

It's late and I've just returned home from a great trip of sailing in the Apostle Islands so I'm sure I've made lot's of grammatical errors in this, please excuse. If you want to reach me go to www.apexadventurealliance.com and email or call. Please be patient on a response. While sailing (borrowed boat)I received several calls that I should respond to this... so I did as soon as I got home.

I will be discussing with the guides ways that we can improve, first thing tomorrow morning.

Happy climbing to you all, and I hope to share a rope with you in future.

Wow, thank you Apex, if everyone had such a great compromising attitude this forum would see a very happy ending. I have run into the Apex guides a couple of times now and have to admit that they were always very considerate and mindful of sharing climbs and ropes.