First of all this is not just another climber complaining about masses at a certain crag, it is a plea for us all to find some common ground as a user group. After moving back from Idaho to the midwest I was psyched to go back to my old stomping grounds of the east bluff a couple of weeks ago. The day was fantastic, great people, great climbing and great numbers of new climbers being led by hopefully knowledgable instructors.By about 9:00 am I had witnessed at least three groups of approx. 20-30 participants each heading up to the east bluff for a day of climbing. Immediately two things struck me: one; these indidviduals being taught about climbing are getting a lesser experience due to their instructor taking them to a congested, populated climbing area, rather than their own crag which would show the esthetics of climbing outdoors. Secondly, I felt a bit angry at those leading those groups for taking a large group to the east bluff, which whether we like it or not is THE destination for traveling climbers due to the dense concentration of quality climbs, therefore adding to an already congested area. I am an outdoor educator for nols,wilderness medicine institute and a university, and I have learned that when taking individuals outdoors, yes you are teaching them skills, but ususally you are attempting to give them a wilderness or outdoor experience. By taking your group to the east bluff you are not providing them with the best experience devil's lake has to offer. One of the real beauties of the lake is that it has tons of little out-of-the way crags which a group could have all to themselves, therefore providing a safe, quiet, fun, and private learning experience. It shows to me as a fellow outdoor educator your lack of site preparation and forethought for those who are paying you for essentially an experience. With this long diatribe, I would ask that we all attempt to come to an agreement that there should be no large groups at he east bluff for two reasons: 1) to provide others with a better outdoor experience and 2) to decrease unneeeded conjestion at already congested areas. Years ago there were unwritten rules about where to take groups if teaching and companies like Dairyland expeditions and Adventures Unlimited(and others) adheared to this rule. So what can we do as a user group to help this situation? A couple sugestions: if you only know about the east bluff, go explore the surrounding ares for a suitable climbing site, self manage group sizes(LNT ethics), ask other climbers for good alternate sites for teaching/guiding climbing, and if you are a climber, let's try to educate instructor/ group leaders of the impact they're having on other's experience. Basically I feel that certain areas should be off limits to groups because it jips the clients of an esthetic experience, some climbers get really pissed at the instructors lack of forethought for site selection, and it just adds to the masses in an unecessary way. So what can we do in a constructive mannor to create this or am I way off base? If we don't take care of issues like this within our own user group it has the potential to eventually grow big enough that it will become an issue for the man to deal with and we all know we don't want that! Peace and happy crankin'. Eric Barnard

The people you need to communicate with don't read Mountain Project.

You have identified a major issue which is a problem for all of us who regularly climb at DL. I would be glad to join any effort that you would like to engage in.

The issue that you did not mention is that many of the guides set, in my opinion, horrible top rope anchors. It is something of a running joke with my climbing partner, but really it is not funny at all.

Sadly, Doug is correct and such people do not read MP.

more constructively: your first step should be finding out what organization they are with

Good luck EB, but I am afraid you are on a crusade that will never end. A few years back I ran in to what I considered an even more frustrating group. The group was a top-rope anchor class (I believe AMGA), on the east. That ended up being a group that was tying up routes they were not even climbing. I tried speaking to the "leader" but was rebuffed.

If you are working at DL as a guide you should know better, if you do not know better you are just lame. Too bad there are a lot of lame instructors/guides out there.......

By the way, welcome back EB......

Although it may be true that the individuals who take these large groups up to the east bluff may not frequent mountain project, a large proportion of people climbing at the lake do. I think if the ethics are set by the locals (us) and we are vocal but polite with visitors that might be going against the ethic we would quickly see a decrease in guided groups on the east bluff. Social pressure can work wonders.

Good words EB! Yea, there are alot of yahoos up at the lake nowadays. So much so that I try not to climb on weekends at all.

I would like to add to this that I do know that Todd from Apex does not take groups to the East Rampart on weekends per the unwritten rule. We should all spread the word about this "unwritten rule". I believe guiding companies do have to get a permit from the park to guide, perhaps this should be a condition of the permit?

Generally speaking, there is a plague of inattentive, undereducated "climbers" out there attempting to climb were they see fit. I believe it is a consequence of the way climbing has become more main stream and the resulting poor instruction from people looking to make money and not climbers.
At Boulders I like to make sure everyone who takes a class from us knows the unwritten rules and is taking climbing seriously. I like to use the phrase "If you fuck this up, you're going to get hurt." It lets them know you can't fuck around while going climbing, it isn't soccer.

I head a story yesterday about some jack-asses at G Dodge hogging the climbs and TRing off ONE BOLT! WTF?!?!?!? My suggestion here is that when any of us see something that isn't kosher, we should calmly and politely let these people know that what they're doing is not ok.

Moral of the story: You do not fuck with Wisconsin.

I completely agree with you that guides are often unaware or disregard how they are affecting the overall climbing experience. However one of the reasons it is nice to stray away from ultra popular crags is to get away from the oblivous guides, gripped gumbies flailing, and the hordes of "classic route" tick listers. The great thing is that you all have areas to escape and climb in a private and peaceful setting.

Historically speaking (at least until a few years ago) there has never been a need for any permit from the state in order to 'guide' at DL. Perhaps there should be, but that opens another can o' worms for the state....who decides who is 'qualified' for a permit? This is a mine field the state has shown no inclination to get involved in. The result? Any douche bag with a bit of knowledge and some gear can call himself a guide....buyer beware for the clients.....

I don't think guided groups are ALL of the problem.

I can handle the groups of people climbing.....I won't even really bitch about the group of 10 people that 5 ropes hung in a row IF they are using all the ropes.

The thing that gets me heated is when you walk up to a climb, there's a rope on it, and no one to be found.....

Or the group of 4 people who set three or more ropes; one rope will always be empty.

This is the behavior we need to change. Sometimes I say something and sometimes I just don't want to deal with and go climb elsewhere.

PLEASE DON'T LEAVE ROPES HANGING, AT ANY CRAG, THAT YOU ARE NOT ACTIVELY USING.

Climbing has become much more popular and main stream, which means more crowds and more undereducated people; but it also means more gear, better gear, and better prices because the market is bigger.

It's common practice at the Lake to share ropes. If there's a rope on a route you'd like to do, and no one using it, ask if you can hop on. If no one's around, check out the anchors, then use it if you like.

If you want to lead through, just ask to pull the rope aside.

Likewise, share your rope around. Don't be insulted if they check out your anchors first. When you need to pull your rope at the end of the day, give them a few minutes warning. Be friendly, get to know people, become part of the community. This is the Midwest - politeness is its own reward. The only good way to share a crowded resource is to work together.

If the rope belongs to an organized group (someone with insurance) don't be surprised if they don't feel they can share (but ask anyway). If you can't/don't want to share, THEN you should strike your unused ropes.

Way to bring friendliness back into the thread Doug. :)

I agree with all you said.

What do you do when there's no one around to ask?!?!?

Me, personally? If its a route I really want to do ....

I guess I usually go do something else, hoping someone will show up at the empty rope. In the meantime I ask around to find out whose rope it is. After I've climbed something else and no one nearby knows whose rope it is (or they know, but the owners aren't nearby), I check out the anchors (I probably already did that) and get on it.

Someday, someone will get royally pissed off at me. But in 20 years that hasn't happened yet. Sometimes the owners are visibly surprised, but be polite and thank them! Ask them if they need you to get off their rope.

If I wander off and leave my rope up, I plan on finding other people on it when I return.

This has been a hot topic at the lake for as long as I can remember.

I've been climbing and guiding there for about 8 years now for a few organizations. Nick that's for pointing out that Apex doesn't normally go to East Bluff, especially on the weekends. If we have to it's almost always to the bedroom or hawks nest, and if you ask nice, you're almost always welcome to hope on a rope or lead the route we have hung. In fact, I've used that a a way to show my clients what leading is.

As to anchors courses being there, if you're teaching an anchors course MOVE out of the way to those that are climbing.

If there's a rookie next to you hanging an anchor like an idiot, pull it.

Doug, you're right. The lake is a great place to share ropes. If you don't like people climbing on your rope or you can't play nice go climb somewhere else. The lake is a great crag community and we should try to keep it that way.

my 2-cents.

Last year me and some friends headed up the west bluff trail to set some a couple of top ropes for our party of 4. We get to the top of the rocks we want to climb and there are three piles of webbing up there along with a paper sign that said, "RESERVED". WTF!?!

Needless to say we didn't take that very seriously. We set up our anchors exactly where we wanted... even managed to not touch or interfere with the "Reserved" gear. This was around 9am.

About an hour later, a guide comes to set their reserved routes. She was pretty pissed... started cussing us out, telling us how she's going to get the park ranger on us (that would be a laugh), telling us how shes gonna set up her ropes right on top of ours, and how 20 teenagers were about to show up and make us miserable, blah blah blah, whatever. We gave them a few suggestion on where they might go instead.

I don't know where this attitude comes from that guides are somehow priority users of the rock.

Luckily though not all guides are like this. I have a few friends who guide at the lake and they roll their eyes at crap like this.

-Glenn

freerange,

so what happened? did she set her ropes up on top you or what? Do you know what guide service she was from? You sound pretty polite. I would have told her to go (insert nicety). I know that I have met some nice guides, but the bad experiences outweigh the good and they sure do leave a bad taste in your mouth.

I understand that there is no formal regulation of climbing in this area. In my thoughts that is the primary problem. I know that involving the parks officials is often disasterous and is generally avoided.

my question is "Is anyone familiar with any park officials at any park in Wisconsin that are running a program that is climbing friendly that could act as a liason for development of a good management program here at this location?"

If park officials could steer themselves towards responsible management rather that the ostrich method that would improve the experiences of all involved including them.

any suggestions?

or perhaps I am a dreamer.

thanks
-ewright

Maybe I had one too many run-ins with authority in my prior lives but I for one would like the Rangers to be involved as little as possible with the climbing at DL and any state parks. The don't ask don't tell seems to be working. And Glenn, I know nobody can "reserve" a climb, but geez, if it were me I woulda gone and climbed something else. There are 1600 established climbs and innumerable boulder problems at DL... Hate to interfere with someone's livelyhood. Just me though. Maybe I am just a wuss and avoid confrontation if at all possible.

Glenn do you think they put that note to "reserve" the route the night before? If so, lame. I guess I thought they had been there that morning, put up a note since nobody was on that climb, then went to get gear. First come first serve for sure, I guess I made an assumption that you probably don't know the answer to. Well, I guess the flip side of the 1600 route perspective is that there are 1600 routes to guide on too. Cheers.

Thirty years ago, us "clubbers" would stagger up to the crag and obnoxiously announce, "The DLFA is here. We have assumed control."
One time the weekend warriors of The National Guard had a half-dozen top-ropes set up on one particular crag. After taking several hours setting up the topropes, they proceeded to hangdog their way up the routes. We thought it might be fun to educate the weekend warriors in the ways of The Lake.
We dropped packs next to them, polished off the remainder of our Phillips Blackberry Brandy, smoked a few pipeloads and proceedeed to climb circles around them, ropeless.
I look back on those days now and realize that we were really being a bunch of teenage a-holes, but it was pretty funny at the time.
Then again, the seventies were a crazy time. We were clubbers after all and we gained our inspiration from our heros The Vulgarians, Warren Harding, etc.

Amen to all noted details above. So often have I seen hideous top rope anchors made from tiny stoppers( 00 RP's come to mind) tied off to a single straight(not a looped) piece of webbing clipped to a 4 pound steel locking biner from 1966. And backed up with a cam between 2 small rocks half sunk in the dirt. Yes, it bothers me to see groups of noobs' from gyms like VE in Warrenville come out to be taught:..
anchors class, toprope class, intro to leading, etc..These young 20 something gym climbers think that since they spent $100 plus on this 'training', they are now qualified to do just about anything on real rocks they have hardly ever touched. And sad they don't reach out to learn from experience real rock climbers, instead of sporty gym dudes and dudettes'. Money buys it all, not learing through experience. '5.10' climbing they achieved in 3 weeks in the gym makes them the equal to any seasoned climber they figure.
Gotta agree the cliffs were under total Club control throughout the fabulous 80's. Just check the book and route lists. Still irks me today that the DNR took away our favorite party campground.

Well I would like to add in a actual guide perspective. I have been a AMGA certified instructor (Multi Pitch) for about 8 years. I have taught for both the AMGA and VEGA. Which are both world class organizations, that do a ton of good for the community. As for the last person who said that we guides aren't real climbers, I am afraid you are very wrong my friend. I grew up climbing big wall in Yosemite. I have climbed all over the world and have more then 17 year of experience under my belt. I am a Wilderness EMT, I have worked search and rescue, and volunteered over 100 hours with the Access Fund. So I do take personal offense. Learning from your grandfather's best friend's cousin is the old way. Climbing is moving out of the dark ages and needs standardized practices, and guiding ethics. If you don't like the guiding world as it currently stands then I recommend that you run to sit on the board of the AMGA so that you can do something about it. Please don't use such huge generalizations. I agree that there are plenty of unqualified guides out there, but there are also plenty of knowledgeable and experienced guides out there who do a lot of good for the community as a whole. If you have never guided then you truly don't know what it is like, so all I ask is for a little more honest perspective in these types of conversations. Lets try to be fair.