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Metolius Master Cams - Update
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Dec 12, 2007
Adam Stackhouse wrote:
The "range finder" is a gimmick, but overall Metolius has a great reputation (my TCUs have performed beyond reproach)

I know its best to stuff the smaller cams,but what's the deal if they aren't? ie, how much leeway do we really have with those in-between sizes. I took a whipper on a 'just too small for yellow and too big for blue' and blew the blue right out. That's obvious feedback, but is there data?

Makes me wonder if they'll have offset master cams? Or I'll just buy a different brand for the different ranges.
tenesmus
Joined Jan 7, 2004
2,641 points
Dec 12, 2007
Rock Climbing Photo: Cima Margherita and Cima Tosa in the Dolomiti di B...
Healyje wrote:
Metolius made absolutely the right decision of cam angle for holding power over range.

Could you elaborate? I'm familiar with the relation between the tangent of the camming angle and the friction coefficient. I'd like to pick your brain on the reasons for preferring a smaller size range to a smaller friction range. I also wonder if you have an opinion on why Master Cams have smaller ranges than the corresponding Powercams and TCUs.
brenta
From Boulder, CO
Joined Feb 2, 2006
77 points
Dec 12, 2007
Rock Climbing Photo: girl40
brenta wrote:
Could you elaborate? I'm familiar with the relation between the tangent of the camming angle and the friction coefficient. I'd like to pick your brain on the reasons for preferring a smaller size range to a smaller friction range. I also wonder if you have an opinion on why Master Cams have smaller ranges than the corresponding Powercams and TCUs.


Link to Metolius site: Metolius - Greater Holding Power

I fall, a lot, and still put up groundup, onsight FA's on some pretty sketch lines cleaning and trundling free on lead and don't mind sacrificing a little range for better holding power. I just want the little suckers to stick.

Don't know about the Master Cams' ranges - I know that the cam lobes were cut skinnier than their regular cams, but as far as I know they have the same cam lobe profile and axle hole location. I would expect them to have the same range as their other cams. I could no doubt be mistaken, however.
Healyje
From PDX
Joined Jan 31, 2006
216 points
Dec 12, 2007
Rock Climbing Photo: Working out the beta for the FA of House of the Ri...
In their website Metolius Quotes this paper: Jamie Gertsch - Brigham Young University, research paper "A Comparative Study Of Spring Loaded Camming Devices" June 1997

anyone have a copy they could post a link to or PDF? I'd like to read this.
David Trippett
From Squamish, BC
Joined Aug 9, 2007
846 points
Dec 12, 2007
Rock Climbing Photo: girl40
I just saw that the Master Cam range chart on mountaingear.com didn't match the MetoliusClimbing chart for their regular cams so I called metolius and asked about the range differences. They said the ranges are the same as their regular cams and that there must have been some errors developing whatever different tables folks are looking at. The Master Cam lobe profiles and axle locations are exactly the same as their regular cam lineup so the ranges have to be the same. Healyje
From PDX
Joined Jan 31, 2006
216 points
Dec 12, 2007
Rock Climbing Photo: Cima Margherita and Cima Tosa in the Dolomiti di B...
Healyje wrote:
I just saw that the Master Cam range chart on mountaingear.com didn't match the MetoliusClimbing chart for their regular cams so I called metolius and asked about the range differences.

Thanks for looking into this. I was indeed going by the chart at mountaingear.com. It was a bit surprising, even though with the same lobe profile, they could have used a smaller rotation angle.
brenta
From Boulder, CO
Joined Feb 2, 2006
77 points
Dec 13, 2007
Rock Climbing Photo: Cima Margherita and Cima Tosa in the Dolomiti di B...
Does anyone know the cam angle of the Camalots (C3 and C4)? A quick search netted this:

Metolius: 13.25°
Link Cam: 13.50°
Friends: 13.75°
Aliens: 16.00°
TotemCam: 12.85°-14.1° (variable angle)

Metolius's claim that they have a 10% larger outward force than "other brands" makes me believe that Camalots' angle is around 14.5°, but I could not find confirmation. I couldn't find a number for Trango cams either.

EDIT: 14.5° also reasonably agrees with measurements I took of a #4 C4.
brenta
From Boulder, CO
Joined Feb 2, 2006
77 points
Dec 13, 2007
Rock Climbing Photo: Canadian Rockies Ice 2008.
David Trippett wrote:
In their website Metolius Quotes this paper: Jamie Gertsch - Brigham Young University, research paper "A Comparative Study Of Spring Loaded Camming Devices" June 1997 anyone have a copy they could post a link to or PDF? I'd like to read this.


This seems to be marketing fluff.

I searched through both "Engineering Village" and "ISI Web of Science" and received no results. Therefore, this is not likely a published study. Therefore, it probably doesn't have much credit.

That doesn't mean the findings are inaccurate, but it's not a readily available paper for review -- so unless that changes, I consider it marketing fluff without a source.
Avery N
From Boulder, CO
Joined Apr 10, 2006
694 points
Dec 13, 2007
Rock Climbing Photo: girl40
John Langston wrote:
You do realize that if CCH had made a misprint that you'd site this as yet another reason the cams are so sketchy don't you? Don't deny it, teh intarnut noes u.


Actually, no, I wouldn't. There is an enormous distinction between information about a cam written on paper and information about the cams themselves. Retailers often transcribe manufacturer data incorrectly in their catalogs and web sites - it happens all the time in the computer business. I have no concerns about such gaffs.

What I do have concerns about is data relative to the actual physical cams: Bad brazes, misaligned axle holes, unswaged stem loops, and untested "tested" cams. Picky, I know, but I'm just that kind of guy.




Healyje
From PDX
Joined Jan 31, 2006
216 points
Administrator
Dec 13, 2007
Rock Climbing Photo: Artist Tears P3
Avery Nelson wrote:
This seems to be marketing fluff. I searched through both "Engineering Village" and "ISI Web of Science" and received no results. Therefore, this is not likely a published study. Therefore, it probably doesn't have much credit. That doesn't mean the findings are inaccurate, but it's not a readily available paper for review -- so unless that changes, I consider it marketing fluff without a source.



I'll contact Metolius and see if they can help.

John
John McNamee
From Littleton, CO
Joined Jul 29, 2002
1,929 points
Dec 13, 2007
Rock Climbing Photo: 2003
Healyje said, "[metolius cams] are far and away the best made cam on the market and made in the US by climbers."
From all the climbers I have met this isn't a great argument.

You stick with your range finder and I'll stick with aliens.
Ben Kiessel
Joined Mar 9, 2004
2,947 points
Dec 13, 2007
Rock Climbing Photo: girl40
Ben Kiessel wrote:
Healyje said, "[metolius cams] are far and away the best made cam on the market and made in the US by climbers." From all the climbers I have met this isn't a great argument. You stick with your range finder and I'll stick with aliens.


Sounds like a plan...
Healyje
From PDX
Joined Jan 31, 2006
216 points
Jan 9, 2008
Anyone have an update on when these will be available? They are still not on the Metolius website. Kevin Stricker
From Evergreen, CO
Joined Oct 20, 2002
642 points
Administrator
Jan 9, 2008
Rock Climbing Photo: Artist Tears P3
Kevin ,

Mgear now shows them shipping towards the end of February. Earlier it was Jan 20, 08.

John
John McNamee
From Littleton, CO
Joined Jul 29, 2002
1,929 points
Jan 9, 2008
Rock Climbing Photo: Me on Half Dome Boulder, Middle Finger of Fury  Aw...
Ben Kiessel wrote:
Healyje said, "[metolius cams] are far and away the best made cam on the market and made in the US by climbers." From all the climbers I have met this isn't a great argument. You stick with your range finder and I'll stick with aliens.


Yeah, thats not a very good argument. Aliens are also made in the US by climbers. I too will stick with aliens
JacobD
From Flagstaff, AZ
Joined Jun 18, 2006
836 points
Jan 10, 2008
Rock Climbing Photo: girl40
JacobD wrote:
Yeah, thats not a very good argument. Aliens are also made in the US by climbers. I too will stick with aliens


The difference is the folks at Metolius are both excellent climbers and excellent manufacturers as opposed to CCH where they may be good climbers, but have shown they don't no shit about manufacturing.
Healyje
From PDX
Joined Jan 31, 2006
216 points
Jan 10, 2008
Aliens Suck. Only people who can't think for themselves and go along with the norm actually say they prefer Aliens. My rack is full of worthless Aliens, booted off climbs because they get stuck so much. Aliens are absolutely worthless in the desert as well; minimal range and seizure with the slightest amount of dirt. They look good in stores though and have a cool name. That is about as far as their worth goes. LDM
Joined Jul 29, 2007
1 points
Jan 10, 2008
Rock Climbing Photo: Dan on Hurricane
Got any worthless aliens you're willing to toss my way? :) Dan G0D5H411
From Colorado Springs, CO
Joined Mar 22, 2006
2,059 points
Jan 10, 2008
Rock Climbing Photo: Me rappin...
Yea I would take those worthless Aliens also... Matt Nelson
From Pueblo, CO
Joined Jan 24, 2006
655 points
Jan 23, 2008
Rock Climbing Photo: Cima Margherita and Cima Tosa in the Dolomiti di B...
Healyje wrote:
I just saw that the Master Cam range chart on mountaingear.com didn't match the MetoliusClimbing chart for their regular cams so I called metolius and asked about the range differences. They said the ranges are the same as their regular cams and that there must have been some errors developing whatever different tables folks are looking at. The Master Cam lobe profiles and axle locations are exactly the same as their regular cam lineup so the ranges have to be the same.

Metolius now has the specs of the Master Cams on its website. The ranges are the same as those posted by mgear.
brenta
From Boulder, CO
Joined Feb 2, 2006
77 points
Jan 24, 2008
Rock Climbing Photo: girl40
brenta wrote:
Metolius now has the specs of the Master Cams on its website. The ranges are the same as those posted by mgear.


Yeah, forgot to post up here, but I did call them and ask and they said the MGear and new specs on the site are the correct ones.
Healyje
From PDX
Joined Jan 31, 2006
216 points
Jan 24, 2008
Rock Climbing Photo: Cima Margherita and Cima Tosa in the Dolomiti di B...
Did they tell you what led them to revise the specs of the other cams? brenta
From Boulder, CO
Joined Feb 2, 2006
77 points
Jan 24, 2008
Frankly I've never much liked Metolius cams. TCU's are OK, but after I bought aliens, my TCU's quickly found a home in the closet of shame, only to come out as triples/quads for big wall trips.

I had a crusty old geezer force his rack on me up in squamish for a couple weeks, and I learned to really loathe both the cams, and especially the pompus attitude that came with them. Metolius itself really oozes pompusness themselves, so it is not confined to the users. If you read their product descriptions and manuals they just ooze with an air of superiority.

My biggest whipper was due to a purple TCU popping under body weight. It was hard to inspect due to the big ass lugs at the axle/stem interface (which always looks like they were welded with a car battery and a coat hanger, and the battery needed charging).

Aliens are now officially sketch, but so far they are the better design for yosemite pin scars and tricky clean aid.

I'll give these new "Master" cams (even the stupid name is pompus!) a shot, but I'd rather just see someone buy out aliens and get the process under control.
Moof
From Portland, OR
Joined Dec 11, 2007
25 points
Jan 24, 2008
I put together a quick exel chart comparing the usable ranges of 2007 Metolius TCUs to 2008 Master Cams. The usable range is based on 10% to 60% of the total range. All data was taken from the Metolius website.

--- Invalid image id: 106095783 ---

Look at the huge holes created by the new sizing. Does anyone know why Metolius did this?
tytonic
From Salt Lake City, UT
Joined Oct 30, 2007
83 points
Jan 25, 2008
Rock Climbing Photo: girl40
brenta wrote:
Did they tell you what led them to revise the specs of the other cams?


A couple of typos when the chart was transcribed onto the web.

Moof and I part company here. As I said, I have two sets of Alien Hybrids. Aliens will fit in a very limited number of placements other cams won't fit into. I only owned the hybrids for the unique capabilities they provided. Their regular Aliens - not a chance - weak in every way as far as I was and am concerned compared to almost any other make of cam. You couldn't give me their regular cams. From the perspective of manufacturing execution, burliness, cam angle, and cam surface the Metolius cams are stoutest cams made.
Healyje
From PDX
Joined Jan 31, 2006
216 points


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