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Is my second 'gonna die when I haul!?

Original Post
Stu-Oz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 15

On the weekend I was hauling a light-ish piglet (maybe about 55lbs) on a thin 7mm static line I usually use as a tag/zip line. I was also bringing up my partner on the main rope (top belay - atc guideplate) at the same time. As sections of the route were less than vertical I noticed that, on occasions, the haul rope crossed over the main rope and bore against it on the rock.

Question - given how gnarly rope friction from a skinny rope can be on another rope - in the calm and considerate opinions of long time haulers;

a) did my partner narrowly avoid having having his lead rope sliced by the skinny static haul line when his rope was stationary under tension and I was pulling up the haul line,
b) I should stop using a skinny static line to haul and stick to a rope that plays nice with others, or
c) I should stop stressing about such trivialities and go back to considering the relative merits of PASs' vs daisies.

I figure I'm not always going to be able to see both the rope and the haul line to check if they're clear nor would I be able to do anything about it so would appreciate the thoughts of more experienced pig wranglers.

Thanks.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Stu-Oz wrote:On the weekend I was hauling a light-ish piglet (maybe about 55lbs) on a thin 7mm static line I usually use as a tag/zip line. I was also bringing up my partner on the main rope (top belay - atc guideplate) at the same time. As sections of the route were less than vertical I noticed that, on occasions, the haul rope crossed over the main rope and bore against it on the rock. Question - given how gnarly rope friction from a skinny rope can be on another rope - in the calm and considerate opinions of long time haulers; a) did my partner narrowly avoid having having his lead rope sliced by the skinny static haul line when his rope was stationary under tension and I was pulling up the haul line, b) I should stop using a skinny static line to haul and stick to a rope that plays nice with others, or b) I should stop stressing about such trivialities and go back to considering the relative merits of PASs' vs daisies. I figure I'm not always going to be able to see both the rope and the haul line to check if they're clear nor would I be able to do anything about it so would appreciate the thoughts of more experienced pig wranglers. Thanks.
A moving rope under tension crossing a stationary rope under tension is a serious concern. It is not hard for a moving rope to chop a stationary rope. Typically the haulbag takes a different path than the climbing route anyway, although it sounds like your application is less traditional aid climbing on a wall and more something else. What were you doing, a two-day free climb or something?

Anyway, if you encounter a situation where the ropes cross for whatever reason and you cannot rectify the situation, advance the dynamic rope with the static rope so they are moving at the same rate. This would ensure that no one section of either rope is in contact with each other. In other words, the wear would be spread along the length of both ropes as opposed to one concentrated section.

Although the demonstration is unrealistic, the premise of what they have to say is sound:

youtube.com/watch?v=1_xOq3u…
Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86

Your partner may die. That sounds really sketchy to me. As a second, I'd probably be pissed off about it. Any reason why you can't haul up the pack after your second reaches the anchor?

Stu-Oz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 15

Thanks for the feedback 20kN - it was that article that triggered the thought!

The climb was a two day free-climb (though not intentionally!) which meant that the haul rig was set up on the belay so it all came together at the top - which was particularly problematic when belays were built in vertical crack and I couldn't build in some horizontal separation between the rope and the haul line.

I take your point about advancing the two ropes at the same time, which I was conscious to do whenever my partners progress allowed. This was only possible because I was belaying him, if we'd been more conventional aid climbing then his rope would be tied off for him to jug and I wouldn't be able to advance it.

I presume nobody in their right mind hauls on static 7mm cord for this reason?!

Stu-Oz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 15
JoeGaribay wrote:Your partner may die. That sounds really sketchy to me. As a second, I'd probably be pissed off about it. Any reason why you can't haul up the pack after your second reaches the anchor?
Thanks Joe - only reason was that the pig never behaves and wants to stay sniffing around every ledge and crevice it can. My partner needed to "encourage" it on its way every now and again.
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Stu-Oz wrote:Thanks for the feedback 20kN - it was that article that triggered the thought! The climb was a two day free-climb (though not intentionally!) which meant that the haul rig was set up on the belay so it all came together at the top - which was particularly problematic when belays were built in vertical crack and I couldn't build in some horizontal separation between the rope and the haul line. I take your point about advancing the two ropes at the same time, which I was conscious to do whenever my partners progress allowed. This was only possible because I was belaying him, if we'd been more conventional aid climbing then his rope would be tied off for him to jug and I wouldn't be able to advance it. I presume nobody in their right mind hauls on static 7mm cord for this reason?!
I wouldent haul on 7mm static simply because it wouldent have any wear resistance under heavy loads, and it could get cut very easily under heavy loads. But for 50 lbs it's probably okay.

I would say the best option is just to ensure the ropes dont cross. If it's not possible, just wait to haul. That's better than potentially putting your partner in danger. Maybe you could take a photo next time. That would be more useful to assess the situation because the issue you are talking about is not that common in aid climbing. I've never had the ropes cross in a manner as to make it dangerous, and I've hauled hundreds of pitches. With regard to the topic, my main concern is usually belay ensuring the static doesent chop the dynamic because they are fixed to the same anchor point and are therefore within a foot or two of each other.
Stu-Oz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 15

Thanks for the reply 20kN, will get a photo next time of the set up, whilst avoiding the cross over, for a firmer prognosis on my second's life expectancy...

Stu-Oz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 15
Mike. wrote:Stu, what jawed device are you using with a 7mm line? is it rated for that diameter? The minimum on jawed devices like ascenders is usually 8mm. So you might bump up to that diameter and still be pretty light and compact. And you'll have a line that you could jug in an emergency (scary and best avoided). If your second is freeing with you belaying, there should be virtually no concern for rope cutting. A weighted rope, i.e. being jugged, might be. If the lead traverses in a way that crosses the haul line, just wait. If you suspect the lead line crosses the haul line, just wait until your partner can assess it.
Hi Mike,

Used a Protraxion for the pulley (way overkill but bought for fatter more troublesome pigs) and a Ropeman2 on my harness for actually pulling the 7mm line through. Both worked like a charm with no nasty effects on the 7mm (slippage, sheath damage etc). I know neither are rated for lines that skinny but I figure that a 55lb haul was well below the rated load which the minimum rope size is factored into.

Next hauling session will likely be more gruesome so will be hauling on a real rope but thanks for the thoughts on bumping up a mm or two. Did think that when I got the skinny line but it was intended for a tag/zip line so wanted it as light as possible but still haulable for light loads. Jugging an 8mm sounds like Type 3 fun to me too.

Just need to pick/build my belays with a little more thought to the hauling.
Parker Kempf · · Bellingham, WA · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 210

how 'perpendicular' of an angle was the haul to the lead line, if they are moving more parallel then it may not be quite as concerning (like when belaying 2 seconds at the same time on separate ropes)

Stu-Oz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 15
ParkerKempf wrote:how 'perpendicular' of an angle was the haul to the lead line, if they are moving more parallel then it may not be quite as concerning (like when belaying 2 seconds at the same time on separate ropes)
Evening ParkerKempf, thanks for the response,

I was consoling myself slightly that the ropes were effectively parallel, albeit crossing over each other, but the concern came when the lead line ran through vertical notches in the face (gnarly granite), i.e it couldn't roll around and the haul line was bearing on the top of it in that same notch.

If my partner was "resting" on the rope and I took the opportunity to haul the piglet it felt a bit sketchy as the lead line couldn't move at all and the haul line was running over it. Nothing like as awful as the example in the video but still didn't look right.

All fine and avoidable if you can see the whole extent of both ropes but that wasn't always the case....
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Big Wall and Aid Climbing
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