qqac:

I did go and look at the user's manuals for the Reverso and the ATC Guide. You are right, the instructions do not explicitly say to not use the autoblock mode for belaying a lead climber.

However, none of these devices have any instructions on using these devices to belay lead climbers. In fact, the physics of how these devices function would imply that this is inevitably a bad idea.

Out of curiousity, I emailed the nice people at Petzl and Black Diamond. To date, I haven't heard anything from the Petzl people yet but this is what the Black Diamond person had to say.

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Hi Andy,

I believe your understanding of physics and your own use has lead you in the right direction. I am not sure how your friend was using the guide for lead belaying using the auto block function. It is my understanding, I have used this frequently as well, that the use for the auto block is for hauling up a following climber or 2, while giving you a free hand on big walls etc.

For the auto block to work while you were belaying a lead climber, they would have to fall below you, and I am not sure this would be the desired
effect.
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The problem with using the autoblock mode for belaying a lead climber is that the rope won't lock off, and thus never achieve anything that looks like an autoblock. I will concede that they do not explicitly tell you to not do this, but using these devices in this manner is not something that is recommended and based on my understanding on physics, it is a profoundly bad idea.

I'm very interested in this discussion. At this point, I wouldn't use a reverso for lead climbing simply because it seems to have too much uncertainty, but I don't get the physics argument as described by Andy. The locking function is due to the pinching of the rope within the device. It is independent of the direction of the pull. If it were set up properly, an upward pull (leader fall) would lock it off just as efficiently as a downward pull. I've tried it...the device will lock from any direction, so I don't see the 'profoundly bad idea'. What am I missing? I think its hard to use in that direction...too easy to lock off unintentionally and will not likely give a very soft catch, but it will lock.

I am also confused by the response from BD...under normal use, this device is not very good at 'hauling' anything...once its weighted, it can be difficult to get any more rope though it...in any direction.

Dave I think they meant using the device as the ratchet in the haul system

Andy, it sounds like whoever at BD answered your email (a customer service rep?) probably was not understanding the rigging under discussion. David is correct that the rope will lock up. The physics of the locking mechanics are the same. The only way you'll see that is if you try it yourself (in the safety of your home). As long as it is unweighted, it is easy to unlock if it happens to lock unintentionally. If it is weighted, unlocking is a little more strenuous, or takes a little more rigging. But this is the tradeoff for the extra security of an autolocking, leader belay for double ropes for situations where the belayer gets knocked out, which was your original scenario. Like I said before, the downside with this rigging is a harder catch, but if you are willing to use the grigri for lead belaying, you are willing to accept harder catches.

"I guess the main problems I have with using a gri-gri are complacency & lack of experienced proficiency.

For doubles, I was thinking of 2 gri-gris, but that's just too much gear to try and manage effectively. I would just use a standard ATC type device with a manual lead belay."

I think you are right on about the down sides of a gri-gri. I was "converted" to an AL because of a fear of situations like this and general ease of use for hauling seconds, etc. For me, the fact that a gri gives a more static catch is not a huge concern, but this is personal. I think the extra degree of security outways the increased danger of gear failure. I wonder it adding a screamer in between your belay loop and gri would mitigate the shock load potential of a hard catch?

Anyway, aside from the rope managemnet hassles of two gris, I see a danger with the fact double ropes are often too thin for a gri-gri. A cinch might be better. IKf we are going to into using gear against manufacturer recommendatioins, what about using a Petzl shunt upside down to belay doubles? The downside a see is need to escape a belay it the leader is unable to unweight hisd rope.

Evan

I'm with the Nelsons relative to prevention being the key to dealing with these scenarios. Positioning the belay out from under potential loose rock or at least being on a long enough leash of rope so you can move while at the belay is essential though, admittedly, some pitches simply don't allow for such arrangements. Once climbing, when a leader encounters a rock that is likely to cut loose if used, they are confronted with a number of imperatives, the first of which is to alert the belayer to the situation at hand. At that point, the belayer should be completely involved and determining his or her options to insure they can avoid falling rock.

If the belayer then determines they have no good options for evading a rock fall then, at least in my opinion, the leader really needs to back off by any means including falling if the odds are good the rock will cut on them. Pushing onward knowing a rock might cut should only happen when the belayer is fully apprised of the situation, has surveyed their options, and agreed to roll the dice with their partner. Under such circumstances, you as a belayer need to remain standing, on extremely high alert, and ready to move in a heartbeat.

Also, as a leader I've sometimes been in the situation where in order to accurately judge the fall line of potential loose rock I've had to stop and drop a small stone so I and my belayer could see what we were dealing with given perspectives can be fairly distorted at times depending on the terrain. If the situation were dubious enough I'd drop a stone, nut, or almost anything appropriate to moment.

Bottom line for me is not letting my belayer get hurt. That, and nothing about the [remote] possibility of this scenario occuring is ever going to get me trad climbing with an autolocking device. The FA I was on today is a six pitch climb that steps out about 60' through about a dozen large and small roofs over those pitches. I've been cleaning it free on lead and parking my belayers either to the side or under the previous roof. To open the line, a large panel of rock had to come off and the circumstances relative to any belayer during that trundle were such that I backed off, came back another day and rope-soloed to a stance above the loose rock for the trundle so there was no belayer in danger at all. I also tagged a second rope which was a good thing as one large fragment of rock shot sideways on an initial impact and managed to cut my lead cord.

Circumstances certainly vary, but you shouldn't get consumed or obsessed to the point you feel you can't back out of a bad situation - options are what it's all about. Once you get to the point of a Glacier Point/Doub-Griffith event, then about all you can really say is you're going to need a sh#tload of luck to survive it no matter what sort of belay device you are using.