Kirra are you one of the "Flames" ???

LOL ~ how true... :)~

I must apologize for the idiot comment earlier. I am sure many of you, including Healyje, have tons of experience and skills to offer. I just take offense when someone states that people they don't even know who are volunteering time to help "have no place being there". I just wish instead of the all to common threads about how it could be done better after every rescue, people would appreciate the great service we have here and/or offer their expertise to help. SAR is like access, people don't appreciate it until it is too late sometimes.

About the questions on why RMR doesn't post. Besides the inevitable mud slinging we all get caught up in, I don't know for sure but my guess is that being a professional organization under the County Sheriff, they are prohibited from publicly commenting on rescues.

Concerning the real issue - I hope the two guys heal up quick and are back out on the rock in no time. Best of Luck.

And to everyone else - climb safe and enjoy the weather before it gets hot. (and wear a helmet) :)

Curt

I do feel that the original thread may have been lost here - which I feel is a bit disrespectful to the injured. Chris is a friend of mine and is in pretty bad shape right now. He has a fractured femur, hip, tib/fib, foot and he lost a lot of blood. As I understand it he was in surgery last night and today. I'm sure he'd appreciate your thoughts.

I saw that Heidi Wirtz (sp?) posted that there was a large loose block on that route just a couple months ago. I imagine this was the same offending rock.

Chris is a real hero for hanging on to his partner after getting struck by the 'microwave sized' block. And I'm sure he'd be the best judge of this discussion everyone is having about the rescue.

Sorry about Chris and hope that he has a speedy healing process.

I would hate to just add to the flames, but I think there are enough people that realize that the rescues in Eldo could be handled better. I hope that some of my input can improve things.

I was involved in a rescue on Electric Aunt Jemima. I can certainly imagine that there IS a significant number of people needed for the rescue. However, there does come a time in which you put more people at risk than necessary for the rescue. Isn't the #1 rule for a rescuer is to not become the rescuee? If an area has present dangers, like rockfall, then it becomes important to expose as few people as possible that are needed for the rescue. Not only are the walls prone to rockfall, but most hillsides are, too.

In our rescue, we watched as several groups hiking up that "couldn't find the trail" up Redgarden. Several of them were fully clad in full goretex (gaiters, jackets, pants, etc) and it just wasn't necessary for a sunny August day (we were in shorts, tee shirts and flipflops).

Basically, I think there needs to be more scrutiny in how many and how qualified of people should be at the accident scene. Many others should be on standby elsewhere (parking lot) in the canyon. It is irresponsible to let ANY volunteer assist in a rescue without organization and scrutiny of abilities.

I can understand the tyrol. Stopping the rescue effort for a photo op is unacceptable (we did witness this in our rescue). The trail to the bridge would not be easy with a litter carry. If they set it up as the wall rescue happens, then it would save time.

I just really hope RMR changes its protocols before a rescuer gets injured.

Also, best wishes to both Chris & Chris to healing well and getting back to what they enjoy.

wow, hey Curt (the original 'curt' I knew) - thanks for the clarification... I thought the other Curt was you (:

wow what if by coincidence 2 curts were climbing on the same route at the same time with 2 different partners. Calls could get confusing ~):

Quite impressive of you to follow up with this series of posts in such a fashion, Curt. Cheers!

And, in the spirit of Curt's redundancy, please let me add that my thoughts are with the Chrises repeatedly throughout my day. As we all surely do, I look forward to their full recovery. Godspeed.

Chris is indeed a real-by-God hero for maintaining the belay! Best wishes to him and I'm sure we're all sending lots of good energy and thoughts his was for a complete recovery.

And kudos to RMR and all the other rescue groups for all that they do. If an accident's going to happen, there are few places I'd rather be than in the Front Range where RMR is going to come get me!

I visited Chris at the Hospital earlier this evening and he's in great spirits given everything he's gone through. I have so much admiration for him, he's a true tough guy. He credits the Trango Cinch for catching Chris, but he stayed conscious and kept his head throughout the whole episode.

He made the comment: A lot of people are criticizing RMR: they can kiss my ass. They saved my life. While 5.13 climbers are spending their weekends climbing and criticizing others on Mountain Project, those guys are volunteering their time. The tyrolean was the smoothest part of the evacuation, and it felt so good to glide over the river after being jostled around.

I don't want to draw him into a big argument, especially since he was on morphine at the time and has a lot to deal with right now. But he was far from critical of what RMR did for him. I'd like to suggest that people volunteer or donate to this group since it provides a great service for the climbing community.

What a shame. What began as a discussion on seriously injured climber turned into a rant on rescuers. The climbers were all but lost in the discussion.

I was there during the accident queing up for Rosy Crusifiction. We heard there was a need for a rescue close by so we headed that way to see if we could help. Two guys were zipping down a single line from atop Rover dihedral just ahead of us to help as well. They quickly soloed the ledge system to Doub-Griffith to assist. We shouted over to them and asked if they needed more help. He seemed to have it under control and didn't ask for more help. We had know idea how serious the injuries were at this time. We headed back to our climb.

Several hours later we did the Vertigo raps and to our surprise the injured climber was still there with a major rescue in progress, several rescuers and at least two helicoptors over head.

Now, we got the details: the leader on Doub-Griffith pulled off a surf board size rock, took a lead fall, was injured by this rock, then it fell onto his belayer, crushing his legs, broken tib and fib and femur in one leg and possibly breaking the other leg. A climber from another party had to pull the rock off of him. Lots of blood loss to the belayer. The leader's injuries may not have been as serious as the belayer's but he did require hospitalization.

My hat is off to the rescuers and the two guys that rapped off Rover dihedral and spent the next 6 or more hours assisting the rescue and major hats of to the belayer. To my knowledge, he did not drop the leader even though his legs were crushed by a huge rock.

PS - the tyrol was set up atleast an hour or two before it was needed, did not cost the rescue any time, probably saved some.

PSS - a car tire size rock blew by us on the upper ramp just one week prior, dislodged by some guys near the base of chockstone chimney. It broke into a few "smaller" pieces, then rocket off the ramp. A friend of mine was down bellow. These rocks pumled the ground somewhere near touch and go near several people. Apparently, knowone was hurt, but they packed up a left anyway. Heads up!

The surf board flake has been loose and scary for over 7 years as I almost peed myself climbing past it back then. The tough thing is that the trail goes below the wall and cannot be seen at this point so trundling without some one below to warn others didn't seem like an option to us back then. I am sure that both Heidi and John thought the same about that flake, that it was not safe to trundle without KNOWING no one was down below.

Maybe this should be posted on a seperate topic, but we have an entire committee for the replacement of old fixed hardware where I do not know anyone who has been hurt blowing an old bolt. Sure seems like they should expand to cover safely removing deathflakes from climbs, as there are many in Eldo and in my opinion are a much bigger issue.

Really sorry to hear about Chris's injuries and hope he recovers quickly. Although some members of the RMR may not be as cool as some of us climbers it sure is a comfort knowing that there are people out there willing to sacrifice their free time to help climbers in need.

Was a clip of the accident on the news in L.A. tonight. Interesting.

Here's to a speedy recovery!

My comments about RMR are solely related to the size of the response and the potential impact on the effeciveness, efficacy, and safety of the rescue as well as the combined footprint of the overall operation.

Even if they do operate on the basis of an open call, it doesn't mean that everyone who arrives should simply be sent up to the scene, especially in the numbers that were sitting around at the base during the rescue. Eight to ten or even a dozen competent people and two to four vehicles could have easily conducted the rescue. The overwhelming response in terms of agencies, bodies, and vehicles was way out of scale with the technical requirements of the rescue and created objective hazards simply by sheer force of the count of bodies and vehicles on the scene. Many of those folks could only be tangentially, if involved at all, in the actual rescue and carry.

And I don't doubt Chris' attitude is 'kiss my ass' as RMR and the folks who rapped down to assist him undoubtably did save his life. But that wasn't my comments were about, rather they were simply that the sheer number of rescuers swarming the actual rescue site can by itself cause numerous safety issues. That RMR might want to consider more carefully, for the good of all concerned, how it manages and deploys what resources do show up for a rescue call. The concerns I've voiced are not simply glib or idle criticism, and have nothing whatsoever to do with any impact on us during the operation, but are strictly on the very real potential hazards of what we observed as we made our way down around the scene.

I'm certainly among those who are glad it all turned out well and hope both climbers fully recover and can get back to climbing as soon as possible.

Also, as a side note on organized trundling, we do exactly that at Beacon Rock State Park in WA. We have one of the busiest train tracks in the nation at the very base of the rock (40' away) and between the heavy ice loads and 24x7 train vibrations we experience significant loose rock every year. On a day or two before we re-open from our annual Peregrine closure we do an organized trundle which involves climbers, Park Staff, the State Park's Regional Resource Steward, and railroad inspection and repair personnel.

The Regional Resource Steward and local park rangers approve proposed drops and check the potential landing zones for flora and fauna before giving the ok. The railroad then stops trains for the trundle which is a big deal on their schedules while tracks. During the operation trails and the tracks are monitored by various involved parties - all with radios to communicate 'all clear' or 'stop' commands with the climbers for each drop.

After the trundle the tracks get visually inspected by all parties, then a specialized set of instrumented rail vehicles do a technical inspection of the tracks before giving the all clear (even if nothing hit the tracks). All in all it takes a lot of organizing, planning, and commitment on the part of everyone concerned - but the result is a safe, controlled trundle of rocks that threaten both climbers and trains. Seems like the sort of thing that would be well within the scope and combined capabilities of the ACE and CSP orgs to organize. Maybe a request page for proposed drops could even be added to the ACE website so they could be evaluated just like fixed pro requests are now.