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Indian Creek Bolt Replacement
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By Zappatista
Jan 19, 2012
Book me, officer.

Hey, y'all, as a non-local, I had a thought I figured the locals might be able to bring me up to speed on.

When I went to the creek last spring, I found that there were a lot of spinner bolts and loose stuff; I'm pretty sure all the TRing and dogging on the anchor chains/rings has a lot to do with that.

Was wondering if it's just me, or are glue ins with chains loctited on the wave of the future at IC? Seems like any expansion bolt has a limited shelf life with the high usage and the nature of that specific breed of sandstone.

Any thoughts?


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By Zappatista
Jan 19, 2012
Book me, officer.

Wow. What a dick move. We've both contributed a lot to this site and that's the response I get? JLP, I'm not getting into some retarded battle with you over nothing. I think you should man up and apologize. That was rude, mean-spirited, and unjustified.

Guideline #1.


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By Zappatista
Jan 21, 2012
Book me, officer.

Jeez. 262 views, and NO ONE has anything to add? Any creek folks out there?


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By Dustin B
From Steamboat
Jan 21, 2012
It's always a party.

My thoughts, Any fixed gear that is Toproped and dogged on all day, 9 months a year in sandstone is going to have a limited shelf life.


Also, thank you for uploading a proper avatar killis.


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By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Jan 21, 2012
You stay away from mah pig!

I would think that someone like Sam Lightner would have the best input on this; I've helped replace a few anchors at the Creek, but never with glue-ins, though, like at other soft rock areas, it seems like these probably will be the wave of the future.

IC has a pretty long history of bad anchors, going back to the fact that a lot of the FAs in the 80s never thought that it would be a group toprope gangbang destination in later decades. I know that there has been at least one fatality there from toproping on bad bolts (anyone remember the specific incident/route? I think it was at Cat Wall, but can't remember).

Ideally, I would think that the best thing large toprope groupd could do would be to just toprope off of bomber removable anchors, and then have the last climber remove them and rap off the bolts. Hehe, like that's ever going to happen, though.


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By Timmamok
From Durango, CO
Jan 21, 2012
crack at undisclosed location - my little proj

My bolting in the creek is pretty limited. 5 piece are standard in the desert as far as I know. I don't have any experience with glue in but imagine rapping back down might not work out so well. I checked out the FOIC page and couldn't find any info.


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By Zappatista
Jan 21, 2012
Book me, officer.

Wow, thanks for all the replies, guys. I'll ask Sam.

My logic went like this: the movement back and forth of the bolts in the holes wears away sand every time the bolt's tr'ed on (back and forth wiggling=easy way to loosen up 5 pieces).

The soft rock-gluein thing seems like a no-brainer anyway, but my thought was that since the glue and bolt become part of the structure of that chunk of rock, with no possibility of loosening or spinning, that they might be ideal.

As far as glue cure times they vary dramatically but any experienced bolt replacer can figure out some of the basic tricks that allow glueins to be used, easiest of which is top access and rapping in.


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By Sam Lightner, Jr.
From Lander, WY
Jan 21, 2012
The Shield

Thanks for getting me over here Killis.

There is no question that Glue ins (GI) would be the best. As a matter of fact they are the best in any application for climbing. A GI uses the entirety of the hole to adhere into position. In virtually all the tests, the bolt does not come out of the rock but instead pulls the rock apart in a big cone around the hole.

Also, they won't twist. I have watched as much my replacement working the area has led to spiners. The inside of the hole, with a 1/2 inch five piece, seems to hold up fairly well (except in vertical placements where water goes down the hole), but Killis is right that the back and forth action on the surface weakens the outer pressure point for the bolt. I think this will happen over time to all of the expansion bolts... we know how fast our medium erodes. BTW, I like to contersink mine to give that much more strength. All you see is a loop of SS protruding from the wall with a little glue around it. I paint them brown and throw sand at the glue to hide it.

The other nice thing about GI's is they seal the hole. No water will get in to weaken the stone with freeze thaw. Also, having the glue handy and right there makes one ore likely to do a good fixup job on the old hole (if you have the time... I can't tell you how many times I have been up some tower and run out of time for removal, and I know it upsets some. Sorry).

So there is simply no question the the GI is a better system, and it is far better in places where the rock is weak... like the Colorado Plateau.

Now the bad. They are simply a huge pain in the ass. To get good adherence you must clean out the hole thoroughly... as in blow it out, brush it, repeat twice more. If you leave dust on the walls of the hole then the glue adheres to the dust and not the main bit of rock. In truth, I have seen many glueins placed by people in Thailand when they forgot to clean the hole and not one of those bolts ever came out... the system is just too secure. However, to do it right you need a clean hole.

Then you have to put in the glue. You do NOT want to use the glass vile method for gluins... You lose a lot of glue with those viles and you do not seal the hole. So, what you have to do is use a caulking gun type system. Hilti has a really good one, as does Redhead. Most large anchor manufacturers are doing this now. You simply fill the hole with the glue and press the bolt in...

But here is the next problem; the glue must cure. You do not want to disturb the bolt in any way while it cures as this messes with the adherence to the rock. In other words, you cannot use this bolt to get up or back down.... you gotta wait a bit. With hilti, 12 hours, with Red head, about one hour.

There is a guy making a bolt called the Wavebolt in the midwest. His name is Isaac.... wavebolt.com/ His glue ins are designed to be weighted while the glue adheres... they are banged into the hole much like a baby angle. He shows how this works and I am now using the bolts. HOWEVER, I do not use them until the cure time has elapsed. The design of the bolt is ingenious, but much of our rock is so much softer than what he designed them for that I simply do not want to take the chance. I use his bolts because they are good quality material and are inexpensive (half the price of Petzl collinox). I will let folks with granite or east coast sandstone weight the bolts while the curing is taking place.

Also, you have to keep other people off the route. I did this in Thailand by threatening to have 5 Thai friends practice Muai Thai for ten minutes on anyone who touched a bolt before the curing, but I am fresh out of Thai thugs here. In seriousness, you just have to leave a note... but a lot of climbers feel that if they dont get to tr Incredible Hand Crack 14 times at the end of the day, then their weekend is ruined... by you.

So, the short of it is that glue ins are a much better system. They are stronger, they last longer, they protect the rock, and they hide better than a bolt hanger. However, they are much more of a pain to place... and in an area where people still argue that its ok to use a baby angle, its hard to ask them to go the extra TWO miles of the glue in.


my 77 cents.


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By Benjamin Chapman
From Small Town, USA
Jan 21, 2012
old 1/4" bolt.

Sam....Thanks for the very thorough and informative explanation of your experience with Glue Ins. We definitely appreciate your 77 cents worth. As for JLP....please go back to your hole and crawl back in to it.


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By Zac Robinson
From Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 21, 2012
Me in the Black Canyon.  Checking out a stopper.

thanks Sam. I was gonna post up a shorter version of what you just said from en e-mail, but never did.

another thing that you mentioned to me once... you said that the rock does contain lots of salts. Stainless then is a much better option. Surprised me since I figured it would be dry enough, but I', sure you have seen way more tat than most.


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By Zappatista
Jan 21, 2012
Book me, officer.

I think it's about time for a Sam Lightner appreciation thread.

Awesome. Pretty much exactly how I have been thinking about it. I have completely re-done an entire cliff (lost track, maybe 20 routes) with glue-ins from the ASCA, so I've got the technique down for the most part, and was pretty horrified by what passes for the standard up there at IC, and at the casual attiture a lot of the weekend-tards had towards TRing through chains, etc.

I think Sam's comments have made me think a lot about the longevity of glue-in placements; they are an ENORMOUS pain in the ass, but I think that in the long run, they're worth it.

Much appreciated, Sam. I'll give you a shout when I head up there to see if we can meet up and do some work together, I'm sure I'd learn a fuck ton from a couple hours replacing hardware with ya.


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By Sam Feuerborn
From Durango, CO
Jan 21, 2012
Castle Wood Canyon, May '09

I'd happily team up with either/both of you for an anchor replacement party! I'd also be interested in getting some exp. with glue ins, as all I've worked with is the expansions.


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By Zappatista
Jan 21, 2012
Book me, officer.

I'm firmly based in Red Rock but I'm making small attempts to expand my horizons. PM me anytime, I'm always down to make this a better world for this ungrateful community :)


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By Sam Lightner, Jr.
From Lander, WY
Jan 22, 2012
The Shield

I look forward to it Killis. And thanks for the kind words... and thanks even more for the easy-on-the-eyes pics!


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By roundhead
Jan 22, 2012

having climbed over your glueins in thailand and five piece bolts in the same area, i would like to personnally say thank you sam. also, thank you for spending the time making such a reasoned response.


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By England
From ?
Jan 22, 2012
Alpine toothpick.

Killis Howard wrote:
We've both contributed a lot to this site and that's the response I get?

What has JPL contributed to this site....Nothing. Ignore that troll. Good luck with your endevors.


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By slim
Administrator
Jan 23, 2012
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

camhead wrote:
I know that there has been at least one fatality there from toproping on bad bolts (anyone remember the specific incident/route? I think it was at Cat Wall, but can't remember).


IIRC a single bolt anchor pulled (i think on fat cat at the cat wall(?)), around '95 or so.


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By Zappatista
Jan 23, 2012
Book me, officer.

JLP, I notice that your anus is more than a little sore? Care to elaborate? Since you're attacking personally, it would seem like the most obvious thing in the world to point out exactly where my horrid mistakes have occurred.

I've placed two bad bolts in Red Rock out of hundreds I've replaced. One was in a hollow spot in soft Calico Hills rock (rushing), the other was one on one of my own routes and is not going to be noticed by anyone who doesn't have a few hours to hike, beta, and a real eye for detail. One's been replaced and the other's going to be in short order.

So would you characterize your comments as groundless spittle or baseless nonsense, given the option?

I'd like to personally thank everyone who contributes to the ASCA and who verbally or in print recognizes the hard, usually thankless work we do.


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