I have been in agony ever since I saw my first picture of some ice climbing. I want to give it a go. I know it's dangerous, I know it's tough. But I want to at least try it. I live in Wisconsin, and I know there is something up in Michigan (UP) with regard to a large gathering of people and companies with clinics and stuff like that. My brother gave me a print-out about one a LONG time ago called Ice Fest, but I can't seem to find it anymore. Does anyone here know what the heck I'm talking about and give me some info on it? I don't have the time to go far. I was looking into a winter climb on Longs in Colorado, but it seems as though that isn't going to work out. I needed something to replace it and be a bit more local. Ice climbing seemed to fit the time budget much better.

Thanks.

Paul,

Check out this link to the Ouray Ice Festival held in Jan every year... it's probably what you are looking for.

http://www.ourayicefestival.com/

Paul, I would imagine you are referring to the Michigan Ice Fest in Munising. Here is a link to a PDF of last years events
http://www.downwindsports.com/ice%20fest%2006.pdf

and here is a link for the 2008 fest

http://www.downwindsports.com/ice_fest.html

Hope this helps. Mike

This is what it's all about, big dog!

Paul,
I ran into this on the Alpinist website. Its a pretty interesting read, thought you might dig it.

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web07f/wfeature-structure-series>>>>>

Happy Climbing
Kirk

Hey guys, I went to Michigan Ice Fest 2008. Had an absolute blast. I'm hooked! The free beer and free vodka was a nice perk too. The only thing I didn't like was smacking my face with the handle of one of my axes on my first climb.

With a couple years of going up there and some more dry climbing experience, I'll pick up some climbing axes with some other gear and get into it a bit deeper. The UP is a great place for me to explore ice climbing too because it's right in my back yard along with Devil's Lake SP just a few hours from home.

I've been into mountaineering for a while (though kinda hard for a Wisconsinite with very limmited vacation time) and this was the next natural step along with dry climbing.

I'd upload some pics, but photobucket is down right now. :(

random note since I clicked on the link

but this may be closer to you depending on where in Wisconsin you live

http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2007-04-10/cahall-icesilos

it is a Univ. of Northern Iowa prof that freezes his silo and climbs on it in the winter. I think he may even teach a class there.

I think that'll be a little far, but might be cheeper. I found out there is a rock quary in Green Bay that hosts an ice climbing club, but it's pretty expensive to join. I live in Milwaukee.
Here are a few pics from Munising Ice Fest!

Paul-
If you are like me, ice will change your life.
I have been climbing for +30 years and only realized last week that I have photos of me leading ice from 1976, and it is the ballet of climbing.... It can be the best because the mystery always remains. On real fine ice climbs there are no givens, just uncertainty balanced with your ability and judgement.
There are a few things to learn which can and do make the difference - so learn them. For starters, 1) you have to learn how and why ice forms so that it doesn't surprise you with a failure and you learn to work with it rather than against it. I teach ice and guide it every week, as I have for +20 years, and if you get a good foundation you will minimize the dangers involved. Granted, falling ice can smack you anytime, but that is being in the mountains, so that's a given (like serac fall, etc). But, and it is a big but, the more you know and apply the safer you are. Every day I see lunacy on ice - people approaching it like sport climbs, without helmets, bad screw placement, time wasted, failure to minimize loading and very bad technique. You don't have to do it that way....
2) learn from a pro - If you don't live where serious ice is done then hire an AMGA Certified Alpine Guide who can teach you how to stay safe AND have a blast learning this delicate climbing
3) practice, practice, practice, or skip it. - Climbing ice is like flying your own small airplane - it is equipment dependent and unforgiving (we're talking leading here). You can get whacked following, but it is very rare (cutting your own rope and then panicking, getting hit by falling ice). But every single foot and tool placement will teach you more than a thousand words, so climb as much as possible, only use the best gear and learn proper and fast technique - time wasted on ice can hurt you.
4) pay attention to what the ice tells you - it has a sound, it has color based upon how fast it froze or refroze, what minerals are in the water it consists of, whether or not it is aerated or solid or hollow, what comes out of the screw, whether or not it has received sun, wind or heat, and what the layers are like when it repeatedly refreezes every night.
5) totally focus on what you are doing - (I learned self-hypnosis before I started soloing ice). Teach yourself to turn off the world. It will make you solid and it will benefit your climbing immensely. An old climbing partner of mine, Arno Ilgner in TN, teaches clients how to focus when climbing - get in touch with such a person and learn from them.
6) do not fall. Ice isn't a climbing medium that forgives - it is not sport climbing or even trad with good pro. If you cannot teach yourself to get falling out of your mind you might not ever do the great routes or anything really challenging. I teach beginners the basics of ice all the time, and 95% never lead nor ever want to. But ice climbing IS leading, and learning to lead ice can change your life if you push it. I took a 40ft screamer on my second ice lead many, many years ago and have never fallen since. Let Grivel and BD test screws - for you, placing pro should simply be part of the exercise you will never need but always will use (most likely). KNOW you will never fall on ice unless it fails you. Most people fall on ice because they are too weak or have bad technique (especially feet). Refuse to let that be in your method and you will never weight a screw while moving. That is Climbing Ice - everything else is a gear test. Don't test it.
Lastly, and I apologize for being verbose, test yourself to see if you really want to climb ice for real. If you leave pack zippers half closed, if you ever have questions in your mind about an anchor, if you are not meticulous about your gear and methodology, skip ice. Like avalanche terrain, it does not care who you are or what you know and it doesn't read about your exploits in the gym - it is where the greatest fun and most learning is to found, but you cannot approach it half-assed. Now, go find some fart with +400 routes behind them and watch everything they do. And if you really are in agony to do ice, good for you - just do it right

Roger,

Ok, I'll quit the euphorical and sarcastic speach. You seem like a serious dude. First and foremost, I have never climbed ice before in my entier life before I went to Munising's Ice Fest. The only thing that drove me to try it was seeing pictures of people doing it in Outside Magazine and the dreams of doing it myself. You have to start at some point don't you? Otherwise I'd never get started, and it would all just be dreams.

Second, where I live, pracice is a little hard to come by especially since the closest thing to real ice is either in Munising or the quary in Green Bay. I'd try freezing the siding of my house but that would cause property damage and some very upset owners resulting in my getting kicked out. With the little experience I have under my belt, I plan on going back to Munising for a longer period of time to get more practice in. It's about all I can do with my limmited vacation time, unless you have a better solution for someone in Milwaukee WI. I have to suck before I get good as one of my freinds told me once. I fully understand how much of a difference practice makes, and I understand your analogy with regard to flying an airplane. A new climber (me) isn't going to make his first attempt (no training prior to) without faults, flaws, or falling, just like a new pilot would likely get into some close calls if not crash, flying for the first time without prior training. I fell a number of times. But I had nobody to tell me what I was doing wrong or why I fell. I learned those things when I took the class. I learned the importance of sound and feel in tool placement, I learned the greater importance in foot placement and balance. I climbed and re-climbed with a single tool, and then again toolless as an excersize to focus on my feet and get that down pat. I've definately learned a ton during the two days that I spent up there. I learned what harder, colder ice looks like and how to treat the harder as opposed to the softer. By my last climb of the trip I did a delicate traverse over some fragile ice and then up some very smooth and hard ice- a fairly dificult route for a beginer according to the trainer. Do I have more to learn? Sure I do. I have tons to learn. If I had two more weeks of vacation under my belt, I'd make a trip to Colorado or Utah or someplace where they have some really good stuff that extends more than 50 feet virtical and get someone with the credentials to teach me how to do it. But I don't have that. I only have a limited amount. Some of it is alreay spoken for. I have my other sport: mountaineering that I love and continue to expand upon. I plan on taking a mountaineering seminar at some point in my life in the near future. In short, I'm making due with what I have available to me with the time available to me.

Thirdly, where the hell do I find someone as experienced as you recomend to teach me? In Wisconsin, finding one would be almost like finding a needle in the hay. The closest thing I've come across is a couple employees at the local REI who probably don't like me hanging around asking them tons of questions when they're trying to get things done in the store. They are there to sell products, not help me become a better climber or mountaineer. I've already detected "annoyance" in one of the more experienced mountaineers who also guides. What do you want me to do? Beg on my knees? Fork out thousands of $$$ to gain their attention? Quit my job and move out to the mountain states?

Fourthly, I understand your consern for safety. I see it all over the place in your post. I expressed the same sort of consern for a couple freinds of mine who are going to attempt Longs Peak. Nothing huge by anymeans, but the time of year they are planning on doing it raises red flags as they have nearly zero experience on the mountain or in mountaineering in general. I have great respect for being safe. I too have seen lunacy in the mountains as you have on ice walls. Sure I like to joke around and stuff, but I take safety and the safety of those I'm climbing around with the seriousness of a life or death matter. Because in my eyes, that's what it is.

Now, I understand that neither of us knows each other or exactly how much we know or what our personalities are, but you seem to be approaching me as some excited 6 yr old who is going to Disney World coincided with a college freshman who is half drunk and wants to try something stupid. I can kinda understand why you are approaching me this way, and your experience with others and experience in climbing warrents it. I kinda do the same with regard to my job when new employees come into my department and want to try all sorts of stupid things.

Don't get me wrong, I respect your advice and your knowledge, and I thank you for every word of it and the time you spent to write it. But at this point in time, I really don't know how to take advantage of your advice with the time and money I have at the moment. That, and I know I didn't cover everything you mentioned in your post.

I probably screwed up this reply. I'm tired and I have too much other crap on my mind.

Paul-
I can be pedantic, I know - it comes with teaching. i am sorry if it sounded like I viewed you as a 6 yr old - I certainly do not, and even less so after reading your thoughtful reply.
Ice is special to me, and once you are comfortable and smooth with it your mountain mixed routes will drop in difficulty because you see the ice as the fast sections that only your ability limits you on in regards to speed. Living where you do (I admit I do not know where exactly you are) might mean No Conway NH is closer that CO for great ice - not sure. But you will do great and have a really fun time learning more ice each time you get the chance.
Paying a guide is a bargain, regardless of what the some macho schmucks say ("I'll never pay anyone to guide me...") - You took a course and that was smart - like you said, you were first floundering and then when you took your course they explained to you what was wrong with your footwork and tool placement. I learned to whitewater paddle from 2 members of the US Olympic Team and was paddling Class 4 my first season and teaching the next year, not because I was talented but only because I was lucky enough to be surrounded by some of the best paddlers in the USA. All my ramblings simply to say, I think you have the right approach and the more time with pros the better. have fun, and let me know when you head toward Chamonix -
Ciao
RJF

hey paul, you need to relax man.

So does Mike, let's be fair!

Looks like the fest was awesome, glad you enjoyed! how's the face feel?

Paul-
Tools: very personal but there are certainly some things to pay special attention to. My observations are that there's 4 things critical to a good tool.

1) endurance - get a tool that is as close to indestructible as possible, with picks for mixed climbing (Rated T), not ice (rated B). Reason: ever break a pick? it sucks and happens when you are off the ground (carry an extra in your pack when using B ice picks or at least a small file). Picks break from incorrect usage (side torquing and hitting rock) and B's break regularly esp on thin ice. Rule - never buy an unrated tool pick. If they don't test, rate and stand behind its strength, why should you. T picks are slightly thicker and much stronger, and you can put any angle. point, teeth you want on it and it will outlast 2-3 B rated picks. And you can use the T pick on rock - its made for it-

2) Weight, balance, feel & overall design - if it is a light tool be suspicious and definitely rent or use one to see if it actually does the job. Weight: Too little head weight means more swing strength and still some do not perform well (example, Simond makes several cool looking, very light tools that are a pain to use - no stick, head too light). Balance: critical. It must feel right in your hand, swing easily from behind the shoulder to the placement without wobbling enroute, and the pick should feel as if it is naturally seeking its placement. Balance: must remain consistent when you short-tool up the handle, and many do not. Hang the tool from something and hang normally, and then grab it mid-shaft to see if it tends to re-angle the head as your weight is appled - if it does it will shift in the ice when you short it and pop probably. Its important to get a tool with proper balance, and in my opinion there are only about 4 that come close. Feel: does it fit your hand wearing bulky gloves - can you feel the shape of the handle or is it just like groping a broomstick when your hands are covered? This wont do - be sure you can still feel the tool and its balance. BD is a sponsor but didn't make a serious ice tool I could get my hand to fit until this year (I have XL hands). Design - go with serious steep ice tools, not 'do-everything' types.

3) get a tool with a easy but dependable removable leash. You will learn with the leash and later discard it, or only use it on mixed routes when you need it to dangle during rock moves. Be sure to remove and replace the leash several times (even in a store) wearing heavy gloves like you would be wearing when climbing (and I can give you an idea about the best combination available later). If you get matching tools that's great, but if you choose different tools for each hand then I recommend getting matching leash systems so you can swap tools even when using leashes (this comes in handy and you'll appreciate it later). Cobras have a nice leash system (which sometimes can come unclipped) but it must be wrapped to the balance point to weight properly when hanging. Grivel makes a great system, requires practice and the cables eventually wear out, but very smooth and can't come unclipped. You want to be able to synch the leash to your wrist and never remove it - just unclip, do your business, and reclip. Taking hands in and out of leashes isn't just 'old-school', it is wasteful and greatly increases the likelihood of dropping a tool.

4) Forget cost & esthetics - Not to sound trite, but saving 30 bucks on a tool doesn't equate to anything important when climbing, and neither does cool looks - smooth climbing and not falling is cool. Be sure you love the feel of the tools and that they are as bomber as possible - you will swing them many times, especially when learning. Borrow, test, abuse (rentals especially) until you find that orgasmic feel a proper tool imparts to your arm and shoulder - it will be your body extension from now on.

Tools are important, but crampons more so.... If you learn to climb well it will largely depend upon how good you are with your feet. We used heavy rigids years ago (Chouinard, Lowes and SMCs mostly) to give the platform needed for hard routes. Now the boot provides the platform so the crampons don't break as often and the point design is more important. Two of the absolute top designs are Grivel Rambos and BDs best (forgot the name - sorry). Both are unbeatable and there is nothing they will not climb well, and you can replace the frontpoint(s). Rambo straps suck but can be changed - actually I changed strap systems on both Grivel and BDs to quick-releasing BD Sabertooth straps.

Again, I am long-winded. Sorry. Have fun.

Roger,

I used my own boots and crampons when I went climbing. I have Asolo Anapurunas(I know I misspeled that name) and BD Sabertooth Pro (quick release step-in) THe boots weigh like a tank, but they are a number of years old as are the crampons. Great boots otherwise. I beleave the BD crampons you're thinking of are the BD Cyborgs right?
I asked the guide about the different aspects of using the vertical points vs the fixed flat ones on crampons because I noticed that both kinds were being handed out at the demo. He told me that it was personal preferance. His personal 'pons had single points in the front so he could rotate or pivot his feet. He also told me that a lot of people are switching to the fat points like the Sabertooths because there is less chance for sheering the ice. I would imagine there are advantages and disadvantages to both styles.

As far as tools go, I was using the latest in BD equipment when I took the class. I tried both the cobras and vipers. Both seem to have the same profile and feel except the cobras were built with carbon vs the aluminum that the vipers were. I also tried out Charlote Mosler (or whatever the name is) which were the guide's personal tools. I went leashless on every climb except the first one. I actually didn't like the leashes. They were too short and got in the way. I guess I didn't really take the "feel" of the tool to the degree you speak of, but I can say I liked the feel of the dedicated ice tools better than the ones designed for mixed.

All three tools that I used at the class seemed to have the same balance and feel but my "feel" isn't nearly as refined as yours. Something like that would be aquired with experience. Like a fine musical instrument. Most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Steinway grand and a Yamaha grand in the way they "feel". But after playing as long as I have, I know there are minute subtleties that changes the "personality" gy a great deal. The same would be for performance autos. (But I thought the musical analogy would be easier to grasp)

The other tools with the offset handles (tools for mixed) I hated. Hated. ...Hated. I was wearing liner gloves and I had to put my index finger above the grip because it didn't fit, and it was even worse when I put on the heavy gloves. I didn't think my hands were that big. And that was with a number of tools that I picked up. At the demo area, there was a lot of "hey, you need those tools? Can I borrow them? Hey, those guys have our tools. Can we borrow yours?" So I got to try out a bunch of different ones. There was a cheep kind of tool that some people had that were awful. Looked like they were plasma-cut from plate steel and the handle injection molded to the metal. And they had a pretty funky paint job made to make them look cool. I'm just starting out and I could tell those were not for me.

Don't worry about being long-winded. I'm the same way. The more information you write down, the more I can learn, and the more detail I can pull from your posts. In fact, I'm happy your giveing me as much information as you are. Most people are one-liners. So thanks for the info! :-)