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I work in a rock gym. Near fatal accident/mistake

Original Post
Tyler Newcomb · · New York, New York | Boston · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 81

I have not had time to even fully process or recover from this. Below is the basic story in text form to a coworker.

The parent tied the kid in wrong and was hauling him up the wall (just hands), another parent noticed and said to Jim "should he be doing that?" And Jim was tied in so he yelled "someone help now" and I was there fastest and the kid was 20 feet up with the dad holding on with one hand, so I went over and grabbed it and thought for a second whether or not to put my belay device on, then realized he was likely tied in wrong (which was later confirmed) but he was already hanging on the rope, so I didn't want to swing him to grab on and climb down or wait for me to come up with a better solution, since it would be more likely to untie if he swung, so j just wrapped the rope around my legs a few times and lowered him and then basically talked to the dad like he was a for year old who just bit someone and said "do NOT do this again, it was incorrect and incredible dangerous, you have to be trained to do it, and your child could have been killed" and he said "how did I tie in wrong?" So I knew if I told him he'd tie the kid in wrong again and do the same thing, so I gave the Bullshit "I'm not certified to teach you that"

If anything is unclear let me know. I am trying to come up with some easy to prevent this or recover from it, whether it be a very specific and clear part of the orientation or a system all staff are trained to do. I know nothing will work 100% of the time but I love my gym and would hate for it to go down due to an ignorant and stupid parent.

Thanks,
Tyler

Tyler Newcomb · · New York, New York | Boston · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 81
John Wilder wrote:The internet is not the place for this conversation. You should meet with your supervisor and discuss this incident with them and work with them to improve the procedures at your facility.
John, while I completely agree that this should not be my only resource, I was looking for ideas and others experience and solutions
nathanael · · Riverside, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 525

Whatever, the kid would be fine. A square knot or whatever BS the dad tied could hold a 60lb kid just find, and an able bodied adult has the strength to hold and lower a child with their bare hands. It's not like we're talking lead falls.

You're being over dramatic.

Nathan Self · · Louisiana · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 90

Twenty feet, you say? That's like a regular highball.
How's the padding? Not new, I hope..

Seriously though, who was monitoring the activity? Like a teacher in a schoolyard, you have got to be scanning constantly, keeping track of all parties and anticipating problems.

Also, many gyms eliminate the tie in, opting for an auto locker connection.

Tyler Newcomb · · New York, New York | Boston · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 81
Nathan Self wrote:Twenty feet, you say? That's like a regular highball. How's the padding? Not new, I hope.. Seriously though, who was monitoring the activity? Like a teacher in a schoolyard, you have got to be scanning constantly, keeping track of all parties and anticipating problems. Also, many gyms eliminate the tie in, opting for an auto locker connection.
As for monitoring it, it was a very busy day with many of us wrapped up in private belays and such. So or is difficult to keep an eye on everyone. Obviously, this isn't an excuse, but rather just pointing out that even while scanning and watching it all happened so fast.

As for the auto locking connection, it would not have done much in this case, as the cold would have still been held up only by a parents hands. We use ropes because having it not look the same as the autobelays may discourage people from thinking it is the same and trying it.
Tyler Newcomb · · New York, New York | Boston · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 81
Nathanael wrote:Whatever, the kid would be fine. A square knot or whatever BS the dad tied could hold a 60lb kid just find, and an able bodied adult has the strength to hold and lower a child with their bare hands. It's not like we're talking lead falls. You're being over dramatic.
Real funny. Head over to the general discussion page if you want to be a troll.
DrRockso RRG · · Red River Gorge, KY · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 815

Do you have no belay certification at your gym? Obviously during the orientation you have to tell them specifically that you need to be certified to use the top ropes (as opposed to bouldering) Seems like there is some kind of serious breakdown in the way you handle new customers...

Scottmx426 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 0

"Near death?!" I was expecting a ground fall with major injuries, trauma activation. I've seen kids fall out of 3-4 story windows onto concrete and live. This was not a near fatal. It was however dramatic. Council the customer and no need to get opinions on how to deal with a "dad" who has left building. Let the manager do that. Hellanor almost.

Tyler Newcomb · · New York, New York | Boston · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 81
DrRockso wrote:Do you have no belay certification at your gym? Obviously during the orientation you have to tell them specifically that you need to be certified to use the top ropes (as opposed to bouldering) Seems like there is some kind of serious breakdown in the way you handle new customers...
See, that's the scary part. We do have Belfast certification requirements, have an extensive orientation, explain belaying, and with this guy in particular clearly stated that he cannot use the ropes. He blatantly disregarded or rules and advisories.
Nathan Self · · Louisiana · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 90

You got it, Doc: customer education.

Somehow that kid and parent (a) didn't know it wasn't ok, or (b) disregarded clear instruction about their own safety.
Sounds like it was super busy, so yeah.

At least the kid didn't hit the floor..

Nathan Self · · Louisiana · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 90

You're fast, Tyler!

Ban the dad and kid if he's reckless.
EasyPeasy.

Tyler Newcomb · · New York, New York | Boston · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 81
Scottmx426 wrote:"Near death?!" I was expecting a ground fall with major injuries, trauma activation. I've seen kids fall out of 3-4 story windows onto concrete and live. This was not a near fatal. It was however dramatic. Council the customer and no need to get opinions on how to deal with a "dad" who has left building. Let the manager do that. Hellanor almost.
You're right, I did overreact by posting this. My apologies. I was just so anxious about it and was searching for some thoughts. I did inform the manager, but the best we could do was leave a warning in the account because the family left. And I don't really understand how you could think this is a troll post....
nathanael · · Riverside, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 525
Tyler Newcomb wrote: Real funny. Head over to the general discussion page if you want to be a troll.
I mean to be fair the first half of my statement is obviously true, the knot did hold while you lowered the kid. The second half is somewhat dependent on the weight of the child, but it's also not trolling. It's really not that hard to support the weight of a small child on toprope given the friction at the top anchors.
Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

20 feet might not kill. At the same time, it can inflict life long injuries.

Tyler Newcomb · · New York, New York | Boston · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 81
Nathanael wrote: I mean to be fair the first half of my statement is obviously true, the knot did hold while you lowered the kid. The second half is somewhat dependent on the weight of the child, but it's also not trolling. It's really not that hard to support the weight of a small child on toprope given the friction at the top anchors.
Ok, now I understand where you ate coming from, sorry I jumped on your case so quickly. As for the second part, while I agree it is relatively easy, it's still undeniably risky and dangerous

And Bill, although it may not, I know for certain I would not want to fall from there onto the ground. At the very least the kid would have had broken bones
DrRockso RRG · · Red River Gorge, KY · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 815

If he clearly received instruction to not get on the ropes and did anyways have your manager kick them out. Better to have a bad review on your website than have someone getting injured. Give them a refund if they ask for it.

Tyler Newcomb · · New York, New York | Boston · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 81
DrRockso wrote:If he clearly received instruction to not get on the ropes and did anyways have your manager kick them out. Better to have a bad review on your website than have someone getting injured. Give them a refund if they ask for it.
I guess that really is the best way to go about doing it. We prefer to host the serious climber or nurture new climbers anyways.

Thanks to everyone for your responses. And yes, I am pretty quick, I don't have much else to be doing ;)
Jeremy B. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0
Tyler Newcomb wrote:...so I went over and grabbed it and thought for a second whether or not to put my belay device on, then realized he was likely tied in wrong (which was later confirmed) but he was already hanging on the rope...
You may wish to learn how to give a solid hip belay. It won't help with the initial "holy shit" reaction, but you will at least be more confident in your ability to get the kid on belay as soon as you can grab the rope.
Tyler Newcomb · · New York, New York | Boston · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 81
JSH wrote:Tyler, your first instinct -- to add friction with a leg wrap -- was great. You probably prevented a serious incident, and you should be proud of yourself. The incident should have never happened, and you should never have had to make the decision you did. The admission procedures and tests in your gym should have kept that parent away from a rope to begin with. John W is completely right -- this is an issue for the supervisor and owner, who need a serious come-to-Jesus moment about whether they should be running a rock gym.
Thanks. I really agreen that I the way I handledit was the best I could do given the circumstances. As I've said before, we clearly stated that the ropes were for staff and certified climbers only, and that their options were the auto belays and the bouldering. The manager on shift said "you did what you could, it happens" which I agree with to an extent, (don't let it ruin my life) but something needs to be done to prevent this. The owner was on vacation, and to my knowledge has not heard of the indecent (yet). Thanks for your support.
percious · · Bear Creek, CO · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,190

I think what people miss is the utter lack of common sense many people seem have when the come into a gym. This coupled with hubris makes for a bad combination. Good news is the kid was not hurt.

I worked for a few years at a climbing wall, rising up to coordinator as I received my AMGA cert.

I think autolockers exacerbate an already difficult problem. The problem is the lack of common sense. Autolockers create a false sense of security, since they are thought to be idiot proof. I have actually seen autoblockers on autobelays undo themselves from a harness while a kid flailed (or more likely it was connect wrong in this case). Luckily the kid had a harness with two belay points and was only a 10 feet off the ground when I noticed, so we were able to get her down safely with a spot. I wanted to ban the autobelays in our gym after this incident, at least until we implemented a 2-function belay connection (see: petzl autolocks with button). Management saw otherwise.

I think the best thing in this case is to end the customer's session, give them their money back, and ask them to return after they have received their belay certification. Some gyms put a zip-tie or a card on the harness to signify visually that someone has the requisite certification for the activity they are commencing. You will either never see the person again, or they will return and take the exam, or get away with such foolery until someone gets hurt. The best thing you can do is document every time you have an interaction like this to protect your company from litigation.

It's unfortunate, but also the reason gyms are so restrictive. Lowest common denominator always wins when someone is paying for services.

Hope this helps.

-chris

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

Public shaming works good, or at least used to.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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