I Must Be Handicapped in Red Rock: I can't seem to find the red tees?

So, if my "handicap" is really high (which it is), how can I rate climbs at RR?
I'm new at leading--though have miles of experience following in Zion and found 5.10 there more often than not straightforward and enjoyable--way off the ground, mind you. I'm wondering if anyone has a special formula for rating climbs out here. Like:

5.6 = 5.10 + (1974 / one's age) x (1 / distance to ground)) all divided by ($$ lost in the casino last night)

I've tried this one a couple times, but still miss the mark. So..If you can't tell, I am a big pussy cat, what can I say? I've never fallen on gear, and hope I never do. So I just don't want to bail off a $100 piece of equipment someday because I refuse to send on a 5.4. And, since we're being honest, it seems that some local 5.6 ratings are way off, whilest others are right on the money, honey. (I've actually wondered if some of those old timers aren't out there spying on us, laughing as we struggle and curse, hang-dogging a 5.5--which is possible only in RR btw; I bet they're waiting to sneak up and steal our gear when we give up and go home, wherever home is.)

All jokes and degrading rants aside, could anyone tell me whose to trust and whose not when it comes to rating 5.6 or 5.7 or 5.easy around here? What about ol' Joe Herbst? And that Urioste, is he any good? Or perhaps their women--strong women, to be sure? Yes, and their men? And anybody else who got an FA? Has there been anybody else?
Okay one more paragraph and I'll shut up--and this one's for you, old timers:
As if putting up all these rad routes was not bad-ass enough, why'd you have to go call them all 5.easy and make all the rest of us slackers feel so, well, lame? I mean, hell, if you wouldn't have climbed these cracks, then I'd a given it a whack. So WTF? Why must you compensate so? Aren't you already bad ass enough? And face it, bumpkin, the only difference between you and me is timing, get it! So why'd you rate them so? I bet your a hoot to match on the golf course--i bet you use some big old woods. And btw, I don't buy that "it was done in the 70's--before climbing" bullshit I hear all the time. Ron Olevsky can't even spell his name, let alone count--and he seemed to get it right. So wtf happened down here? You boys is compensating for something.
Am I wrong? Am I wrong? Am I?

Leading 5.6 and following .10 are different in many ways, especially when learning to lead. what is $100 piece and why does a new leader own one?

I always thought it was kind of funny how loads of people talked about how "soft" Red Rock grades were. In a way they are right... but a large majority of folks I spoke with were there sport climbing, not climbing long routes out in the canyons.

For the most part if you come across a Joe Herbst route it's going to be right on or hard for the grade- especially when he rates a route 5.9 (except Frigid Air Buttress, definitely not 5.9+... way easier). The Urioste's routes are going to be either right on or soft for the grade. And of course there's Richard Harrison, Nick Nordblom and Sal's routes... those are going to be hard and most likely sketchy... even their sport routes.

A lot of the time though it's not just the grade that plays an influence on your ability to climb it. Often times it's the style of the climb. Herbst offwidth routes are old school and really hard- that's just how they are. It doesn't matter if it's a 5.7 or a 5.10, they are going to be difficult because they are OW. Take that into consideration too.

You might need to just get used to the rock. Once I realized how grippy the rock really is, I actually found the ratings softer than I was used to, that or I was just having a number of good days in a row.

Andy Hansen wrote:I always thought it was kind of funny how loads of people talked about how "soft" Red Rock grades were. In a way they are right... but a large majority of folks I spoke with were there sport climbing, not climbing long routes out in the canyons. For the most part if you come across a Joe Herbst route it's going to be right on or hard for the grade- especially when he rates a route 5.9 (except Frigid Air Buttress, definitely not 5.9+... way easier). The Urioste's routes are going to be either right on or soft for the grade. And of course there's Richard Harrison, Nick Nordblom and Sal's routes... those are going to be hard and most likely sketchy... even their sport routes. A lot of the time though it's not just the grade that plays an influence on your ability to climb it. Often times it's the style of the climb. Herbst offwidth routes are old school and really hard- that's just how they are. It doesn't matter if it's a 5.7 or a 5.10, they are going to be difficult because they are OW. Take that into consideration too.

I've wondered about this too. I've yet to climb any sport at RR, but I've yet to come across soft grades (meaning more than a letter grade). Is Cloud Tower soft? How about Rock Warrior? I think not.

Cloud Tower I don't think is soft for the grade. I think the Handren guidebook is pretty right on pitch for pitch. And the route is amazing!

As for Rock Warrior I can't comment as I've never climbed it. Though I would suspect that it's as hard if not harder than it's neighbor PoD... but with a whole mental aspect accompanying the difficulty.

No idea how to handicap one's abilities. To be honest, I don't think it'll ever work.

Personally, I think the routes I've done at Red Rocks are softer for the grade than the routes I've done in the 'Gunks or in NH. Only the chimneys of Epi pushed me, and that's because I wasn't experienced in climbing chimneys. Everything else seemed pretty doable at a grade I wouldn't have considered doable back east at that time.

But of course, as someone noted above, it depends on the FA, too.

Thank you Andy. I appreciate your insight.
I have yet to try anything longer than grade II because I don't trust the rating system. I am very glad to hear that about the 5.9 grades by Herbst being way soft. I can handle Zion 5.9, usually without a problem (unless it's a Dave Jones 5.9). But I haven't even looked at 5.9 in a book out here. My gf and I are spending all of our afternoons on the obscure routes. I figured we'd start with the easy ones and build up to the hard ones--makes sense. And so I'll get some confidence, so I'll move up a grade, and then get slaughtered by a 5.7. Next day, though, I'll kill a 5.7. And I've climbed enough to know that it had nothing to do with my breakfast that day or whether I got laid the night before. And it's not whether its a finger crack or an off-width either. I get what you say about style--and I know my ability in each of the styles as well.

Can you be more specific about grading?

Is it safe to say a whole letter grade, either way, for the climbers you mentioned above?

I actually saw a MP post yesterday that said 5.7d. I mean, must we really go there? Well I guess so, if a man can't trust the FA.

The steepest 5.6 I ever climbed was in Red Rocks. Easy but almost vertical.

I think you need to 1. get used to the rock, but more importantly 2. get used to leading. These problems you're having will evaporate as you gain a little more savvy. If you're really worried about over-committing yourself, stick to single pitch routes for now.

c-ditty wrote:hang-dogging a 5.5--which is possible only in RR btw;

Would you name this route?

c-ditty wrote: I am very glad to hear that about the 5.9 grades by Herbst being way soft.

He's saying the opposite of this. I think you have your terms wrong. Some of use it as verb, i.e. I got Herbsted on that route.

Yeah, technicalities. I have been herbsted. Okay, it was a 5.6 that I hang-dogged. It was right of a 5.7 I started and down-climbed cause I was too scared and didn't have my number 5. (It was in the pawn shop).

I think for the most part, the grades of the canyon routes are pretty accurate, for difficulty. It sounds like it's more your head getting involved than anything. I've definitely done long pitches of 5.6 or 5.7 with only a few pieces of gear, but they would still be 5.6 or 5.7 nearly anywhere else. Go do Birdland, a fun route, and spot on at 5.7, IMO. Not too long, but might be too hot without an early start.

What does IMO mean?

c-ditty wrote:What does IMO mean?

In my opinion it means you need to learn how to use google.

Obviously you're not a golfer.

Thank you, Eric. Thank you, Donny!
Anyways, I'm going climbing...

Troll or no troll I saw Killis hang dog a 7d once. True story.

Leave no point unmissed, no joke ungotten. Keep on keepin' on, Killis.

The Dread Pirate Killis wrote:True DAT, Handy! If this elbow doesn't heal up soon, I may be begging for guiding up Birdland (7d- VS WI -3). Bummer... Eric, since you golf, how did you tell your parents you were gay? I mean, into boy-boy Fjellatio? Ah, it's no fun making fun of golfers or people hooked to iron lungs. Too easy.

What is wrong with being gay, Killis?

GMBurns wrote:...Personally, I think the routes I've done at Red Rocks are softer for the grade than the routes I've done in the 'Gunks or in NH... Everything else seemed pretty doable at a grade I wouldn't have considered doable back east at that time...

+1 on that. I've climbed a week out in RR every spring since 1999 and climb almost exclusively trad routes. With rare exception the routes are definitely softer at RR than back east. This is especially true of roofs which are significantly soft compared to the Gunks.

vegas and st george are the center of soft ratings in North America.