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How much below your limit do you lead trad?

Original Post
JeffL · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 65

I just got a rack last week, and have already gotten myself pretty nervous. My limit in sport is 11b, but on a 10c the other day I was definitely out of my comfort zone. I ended up running out almost 30 feet because I could not find a good placement. I did place one piece in between there, but didn't trust it to hold a whipper. So there's the question, how close can you get to your limit on gear? I understand some routes are harder to protect than others, and am using the mindset that you don't fall when leading trad.

Lastly, how close to peeling off will you let yourself get while placing gear? I'm talking about not having a good resting position when you're placing your protection. Near my limit, I've had situations where I nearly fell while clipping the rope to the draw from pump.

Edit: If it matters I'll mostly be onsighting, aside from projects and classics.

Chris Plesko · · Westminster, CO · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 485

a letter or two assuming non-R routes

randy88fj62 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 291

I just recently started leading 5.9's. I can climb 5.10 top rope. A year ago I was very skiddish on 5.9 leads so I took it slow.

I recently did Venusian Blind on Temple Crag in the Sierra and it's rated 5.7. There was a 5.6 "exposed" pitch with loose blocks that had me spooked. I had no trouble finishing the pitch but the adrenaline level was higher than usual.

When I first started trad climbing 4 years ago I was spooked by Graak Crack in Yosemite Valley and it's a 5.5 or 5.6? At that time I couldn't top rope 5.10. I was top roping 5.9 at best.

Using me as an example of a novice I would recommend three grades below. You will get infinite responses to your question. Stay away from R rated routes until you get more comfortable. I did Snake Dike on Half Dome this summer and the run outs didn't scare me too much since I can lead 5.9 now.

Eric Fjellanger · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2008 · Points: 870

I mostly climb alpine and crag trad routes, not much sport. A 5.10+ crack feels much easier to me than an overhanging 5.10+ sport route. Apples and oranges.

generationfourth · · Irvine, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 10

Start over. seriously. Sport ratings do not translate over. Work your way back up. I climb 5.12 sport, boulder v7. And after a couple of years leading trad I am just now breaking into 5.10 trad depending on where it is at– hell I whipped off of an old school .9 a few weeks ago.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
generationfourth wrote:Start over. seriously. Sport ratings do not translate over. Work your way back up. I climb 5.12 sport, boulder v7. And after a couple of years leading trad I am just now breaking into 5.10 trad depending on where it is at– hell I whipped off of an old school .9 a few weeks ago.
This^^ That is really the best way. You just work your way through the grades. You will find out better at what level you are comfortable. I think clipping and placing gear is similiar to clipping draws, in that you learn how to do it second nature(I speak from watching some of my partners climb). Until then I would climb what you are sure of yourself at. That is what I am doing at least.
generationfourth · · Irvine, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 10
J Hazard wrote: This^^ That is really the best way. You just work your way through the grades. You will find out better at what level you are comfortable. I think clipping and placing gear is similiar to clipping draws, in that you learn how to do it second nature(I speak from watching some of my partners climb). Until then I would climb what you are sure of yourself at. That is what I am doing at least.
yeah you really don't want to learn how to place gear while climbing at your limit. Also, 10's and 11's seem to be pretty common sense on where they go. while the 5.6-5.8 seem to have a lot of route finding complexities. You really need to learn how to read easier stuff like this because once you get to the harder stuff they will not give you a bolt on the blank 35' 5.7 slab.
Chris Plesko · · Westminster, CO · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 485

Not everyone starts out sport climbing

camhead · · Vandalia, Appalachia · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,240
generationfourth wrote:Start over. seriously. Sport ratings do not translate over. Work your way back up. I climb 5.12 sport, boulder v7. And after a couple of years leading trad I am just now breaking into 5.10 trad depending on where it is at– hell I whipped off of an old school .9 a few weeks ago.
I dunno, it all depends on the kind of trad you are interested in climbing. If you are a 5.12 sport climber who wants to climb 5.12 Indian Creek cracks, working your way up through the grades on 5.8 choss gullies would be ridiculous. A better solution would be toproping for a few trips, then jumping right on the 5.10s.

Of course, everyone knows that the Creek is not trad, either.
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

To answer the op:

at my limit... and sometimes beyond.

Finn The Human · · The Land of Ooo · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 106
generationfourth wrote:Start over. seriously. Sport ratings do not translate over. Work your way back up. I climb 5.12 sport, boulder v7. And after a couple of years leading trad I am just now breaking into 5.10 trad depending on where it is at– hell I whipped off of an old school .9 a few weeks ago.
Same story for me.

Of course, I know people who almost exclusively trad climb, and they'll cruise up an 11+ crack, and get totally sketched out on a 10- sport route.
Nick Stayner · · Wymont Kingdom · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 2,315

First of all, (can't believe nobody's told you) YER GONNA DIE!!!!!

But seriously...

generationfourth wrote:Start over. seriously. Sport ratings do not translate over. Work your way back up. I climb 5.12 sport, boulder v7. And after a couple of years leading trad I am just now breaking into 5.10 trad depending on where it is at– hell I whipped off of an old school .9 a few weeks ago.
That is pretty good advice to an extent. You'll definitely want to do a handful of routes at a few different areas and "work your way up" so to speak. Do this preferably with an experienced trad leader wo can critique your placements. There's no reason to protract this experience for 2 years necessarily, unless you're really not climbing much.

generation fourth, that seems like a pretty large gap between your sport and trad abilities... maybe something else is at work? Have you read any of Arno Ilgner's books? (FWIW my sends on gear are within 2 letter grades of my hardest sport sends, but that was at the Creek so we all know it doesn't really count...)

JeffL wrote:Lastly, how close to peeling off will you let yourself get while placing gear?
You're the only one who can answer that. Once you have a bunch of experience, the answer will seem obvious.
Andy Kowles · · Lyons, CO · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 65
Chris Plesko wrote:Not everyone starts out sport climbing
+1 ...and thank God for it.
Rob Baumgartner · · Niwot · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 196

If you just got a rack last week (and haven't followed at least a few dozen trad climbs), then I have to wonder how solid your gear placements are...it's never a good idea to whip on gear you're not sure of or have placed hastily, and it sounds like you're pushing it a bit.

The "start over" approach is definitely the safest way to go about this. Besides the fact that the gear is a new challenge, the styles of climbing vary hugely. What's the hurry? Why risk it? Jump on some 8's for a month or two, then slowly work your way through 9 & 10 in the fall. Those 5.11b trad routes will still be there in the spring.

generationfourth · · Irvine, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 10
Nick Stayner wrote: There's no reason to protract this experience for 2 years necessarily, unless you're really not climbing much. generation fourth, that seems like a pretty large gap between your sport and trad abilities... maybe something else is at work? Have you read any of Arno Ilgner's books? (FWIW my sends on gear are within 2 letter grades of my hardest sport sends, but that was at the Creek so we all know it doesn't really count...)
Yeah I don't mean climb single digits for the first couple years– that's just my case. And good question (as I ask myself quite often). There are a few reasons:

1. I tend to climb different styles depending on the time of year. So in fall and spring I will do a lot of sport climbing, bouldering. Winter time is for hard bouldering. And summer is usually the only time I dedicate to climbing trad. And usually it's about a month before I feel solid again at it. So that leaves a window of two months or so to push the grade.

2. Length of climbs... I like to do long routes so as the # of pitches go up, the grade tends to come down. I rarely go single pitch trad cragging which is where I'd want to push the grade.

3. I'm just not the best at crack climbing yet and a lot of the places I climb (taq/suicide, yosemite/tuolumne, sierras) tend to be pretty stout. I'm also sure I'd get my ass handed to me at the creek when it comes to power endurance.

I'm starting to dedicate a lot more time to it. Got a double rack so I don't have to rely on partners (and have been asked to take a lot of people on climbs now), and plan to try and keep at it year round instead of seasonly. Also, thanks for the reminder I need to dust off arno's book where ever I misplaced it...
Mark Mueller · · Surprise, AZ · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 185

been climbing about a year now, started bouldering and top roping then started leading sport routes last summer/fall. I started leading trad this year and have finally gotten my gear routes within a letter or two of my sport routes. I haven't been doing much sport lately but I like a good jam over a big jug...

Nick K · · Denver, CO · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 30

I think it depends on what you tend to climb: I've onsighted .11a sport, and sent .12a sport after a few attempts, but those were bouldery overhanging climbs all about power.

I can climb hand cracks no problem (at least at the Creek, where I hear it doesn't count), but technique heavy finger cracks shut me down pretty hard, for instance, there's a .10b that I've tried a few times now that I still can't lead cleanly.

Ian Cavanaugh · · Ketchum, ID · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 620

pretty much the same, maybe a letter less than my hardest sport but pretty even. it all come down to know the technique to climb any style and the skills to put the gear in.

Tombo · · Boulder · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 410

This is interesting to me, when I was younger I climbed trad and sport at basically the same grade. My style was not to fall regardless of grade. I topped out at 11+ m/l as far as flash concerned. Now I lead 5.9 comfortably in Eldorado and rope solo 5.10a/b in Boulder Canyon and CCC. Is it grade inflation or fear that is the change.

Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061

It really depends on how much mileage you have climbing over gear. You got your rack a week ago...shit, I'd be sticking to WAY under my physical limits until I had better ability to read routes and placements, was pulling the right piece off the rack first go most of the time, knew what gear I could whip on, etc.

The conundrum is, sometimes the easier routes are more dangerous because they are low angle and ledgy and you're likely to hit something in a fall, whereas harder steeper stuff can be free of consequences provided your gear is good.

At some point you'll have enough experience base with placing the gear and reading the routes/fall potential/etc to attempt onsights at or above your limit (and even then this probably won't be the meat of your climbing diet).

There is no easy answer, but as a fresh leader I'd just say "far enough below it that you WILL NOT FALL, PERIOD". Then ratchet it up as you get more experience.

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
Will S wrote:It really depends on how much mileage you have climbing over gear. You got your rack a week ago...shit, I'd be sticking to WAY under my physical limits until I had better ability to read routes and placements, was pulling the right piece off the rack first go most of the time, knew what gear I could whip on, etc. The conundrum is, sometimes the easier routes are more dangerous because they are low angle and ledgy and you're likely to hit something in a fall, whereas harder steeper stuff can be free of consequences provided your gear is good. At some point you'll have enough experience base with placing the gear and reading the routes/fall potential/etc to attempt onsights at or above your limit (and even then this probably won't be the meat of your climbing diet). There is no easy answer, but as a fresh leader I'd just say "far enough below it that you WILL NOT FALL, PERIOD". Then ratchet it up as you get more experience.
Very good advice.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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