How do YOU ensure your belayer is competent?

First, I'd like to request that replies are serious and add something to the discussion. Before simplifying this matter, please acknowledge that climbers do indeed assume a degree of risk, including with their belayer's competence. Not every belayer had a mentor; most of us learned it together (and made mistakes along the way).

While many of us are lucky and climb exclusively with skilled, trustworthy partners, the real fact of the matter is climbing is a social sport and meeting new partners is something that happens a lot; Moving to a new area, visiting a destination, climbing with friends-of-friends, the gym scene, etc.

So how do YOU assess/ensure the competency of your belayer when climbing with them the first time? You cannot always watch them belay someone else first, nor can you watch their brake hand when you're on the wall.

...Yet it can be a somewhat sensitive issue, as people are naturally expected to be defensive of their egos ("Yeah, man, of course I can belay. I'm not a noob. I got you."). Nobody wants to be offended, and nobody wants to hit the deck.

I have seen bad accidents. I survived the "danger years" when complacency is common, and the typical avoidable errors happen the most. But many, many climbers are still in that area, where one's ego supercedes their experience. Surprise surprise: They're not always super receptive to a rigorous skill-check, complete with checklists and a watchful fireman's belay. It's a delicate situation, but an important one.

When it's time to rope up, and check each others' harness/knots/etc., how do you effectively, yet respectfully vet your partner's ability? How do you break-through the ego barrier that insists "Pshhhhhh, of course, bro, I got this. I ain't a gumby."?

Interesting question.

I like to have a conversation with new partners about where they've climbed and what types of climbing they've done. This can be a totally casual conversation but it can also be a good gauge of their experience. I also pay attention to the details around how they handle themselves, how they pack, how their gear looks, what their goals are, what their attitude is, etc. In addition to watching them climb, belay, and evaluating their systems, this can be a useful way to decide how much to trust them.

Also, I avoid people who are constantly spraying on the Proj.

;)

My belayers are my friends, we hang out in other settings, and we talk about other things. Because of this, we share a strong connection and because of the time spent I believe that I can evaluate their trustworthiness. In addition, as a relationship grows, so does expectations, especially when there's a circle of friends involved (nobody wants to be exiled due to a careless error). In the beginning especially I take things quite seriously though I present myself casually. I recite all of the commands every time, and I always acknowledge that my partner is through both points with a good knot. I find that the reciting of the commands, eye contact, and acknowledgement is important to engage the belay and get everyone's head where it needs to be. Its like a mantra, an effort to narrow the focus to the singular task of climbing/belaying.

Of course, all of this is washed if the person can't place gear competently, builds shitty anchors, and in general has not applied themselves to learn the physics of climbing. Furthermore, I apply greater expectations for multi-pitch trad endeavors where we may be isolated without cell reception several hundred feet up. I talk to my friends before ever proposing such a trip. I want them to know how to improvise, and use the equipment properly. Of course, I don't grill anyone, we engage in a mutually beneficial conversation sharing ideas and experience so that we can both feel confident in one another.

So, I don't climb with anyone. At the gym I'll boulder if it comes down to it. At the crag I will observe until I've drawn conclusions about a persons competency. I've often wondered if I would ever develop a series of questions for a random that might put my mind at ease. But, it hasn't happened, I won't climb with randoms.

I was lucky to practice in the gym with my partners. But when we started climbing outside on a regular basis, it still took some mistakes in order to learn better technique. For example, getting short-roped a lot while clipping and taking some hard falls because my belayer didn't have enough slack in the system. Sometimes it's easier to learn what NOT to do while belaying. For me, I'm satisfied if my partner is a quick learner and learns from those mistakes. How else do you learn, right? I always have a 30 second talk while we're checking knots.."Remember the dynamic catch!!"

Give them a good lesson on the ground, being courteous towards knowledge they may already have. Always good to give a refresher and know we are on the same page.
Most importantly I don't go climbing with new people on a route that's above or at my grade. I'll get on an easy route for myself and communicate back to the belayer as much as necessary. Maybe take a practice fall at a low height.
I do not have a lot of experience but I am often in the position of being a leader. In some ways I feel this is holding me back from being able to attempt or project harder climbs and push my limits. Though I am very grateful for being put into the role of a leader. By staying off harder climbs for the time being, I am able to focus on the safety of myself and others. I'm able to make sure we are safe and using proper techniques.
So my recommendation to you is to keep it simple and fun. Be satisfied and happy with easy climbs. Enjoy it until you're both ready to go further. Even if it means only getting in a few climbs an outing.

Go climbing as a group of three+, and watch them belay.

Hand them a device and hope for the best.

More than once I have done this, including to my wife.

Get about four feet off the deck with a clean landing, place a good piece and jump off unannounced. Your belayer will not appreciate this at first BTW, but totally worth it.

This past weekend I walked up to a climb where minutes before I got there someone decked from 40 feet. The climber was badly injured and evacuated by the EMS and fire department. Nobody seems to be totally sure what happened but the belayer said that when his friend fell the rope just kept flying through his hands. He was using a grigri 1. My guess was he may have been belaying wrong and squeezed the device stopping the caming action. Or he thought maybe he loaded the grigri backwards. There was nothing wrong with the grigri though, I looked at it afterward and it was perfectly fine and operational.

After talking with the belayer a bit I got some bad vibes. He said he has been climbing for 5 years but he also said "I've done outside before and never had this happen, I've never made this mistake". Done outside???

Anyway, that got me really spooked and the rest of the day I felt sketchy about leading anything. Although I currently blindly trust all my partners this event makes me scared about climbing with new people.

Before this happened I started climbing with a guy who just messaged me on mountain project and we met up. I told him before even meeting up that I wont blindly trust him and that I WILL question him about belaying/anchors/ect. and I told him I hope he does the same to me. We both agreed there was no room for pride or ego with climbing and neither of us want to climb with someone who would be upset with being questioned on their knowledge.

I'm glad I took that approach because now we fully trust each other and have no problem questioning each other on anything.

If I come across someone who has a problem with me asking questions and double checking things then I don't even want to climb with them and I'll just move on.

Man! Those Gri gri's are freaky. I get it. It's almost always, if not always, user error. But I keep hearing stories about people being dropped because of them. Never hear those stories when an atc is used. Yet, climbers recommended that a new belayer use them for extra security. F that! I'm sure I'll get one eventually, but for other uses.

good topic.... and several good answers.

Before I even think about going out with someone who I have never climbed with, I must meet and go "Bouldering" with them.... just to get to know them as a person.

You can tell a lot in a few minutes.

Then going out as a party of three works. You can watch somebody in action. Sport Climbing lets you see how a person climbs.

For me, I need to have confidence in a partner before I go to the high and wild and trust my life to them, that takes a while.

ColinW wrote:Thanks for posting this Toad! Yesterday, I went out with my main partner and 3 other people. My partner leads up to set up a TR for them and the chick, who's a doctor!!!, belay for him. On the hike up, I casually ask "How long you've been climbing for?" "About 10 years....Off and On" I'm thinking okay...she probably knows what she's doing. This bitch is having a conversation, looking at the person she's having a conversation with, not even looking at my buddy when he whips. He fell FAR more than he should and decked it about 12ft below onto his hip. Needless to say, I was furious at this lady. Some fuckin' Doctor you are lady..... The best thing I've found, in my short few years of climbing, is to establish trust in some way based on previous climbing experience and conversation. And if that doesn't happen, I'll hand them a GriGri...

Cool story bro. I have a couple of issues with it.

First - how does being a physician in anyway correlate to one's belaying ability? Last I checked they do not teach belaying 101 in medical school.

Second - you made the assumption she knew what she was doing based on the 'I've been climbing 10 years on and off' - that could mean really different things to different people.

Third - if you observed this behavior (which it sounds like you did) as it was happening, why on earth did you not correct her or intervene in some way? A simple - 'hey, watch your climber' might have helped.

Fourth - I'm just curious if it had been a male belayer who f'ed up if you might have related this story any differently, the use of derogatory terms such as 'chick' and 'bitch' certainly don't reflect well on you.

Hope your friend is ok.

As for the OP's original question - I don't climb with random people unless I have someone else along who I trust so that there's another set of eyes on the ground. Sometimes if we have a group at the crag I will climb with people I don't know, but it's usually in a setting where they aren't total strangers - ie; the AAC Craggin' Classic a couple weeks ago.

My approach is to tell them I want to communicate, perform pre-climb checks, talk about the belay for that particular climb, what the plan is for lowering vs rapping, etc... I ask them what device they are comfortable on, and have them use that (also ask which device they'd prefer I belay with). I always start out well below my grade to get a feel. I've found if it is a new climber, usually it's more an issue of short-roping than worrying they won't catch me or drop me - I will take some practice hangs/falls with a new climber.

I don't make a big deal about any of it - just tell them I do this with all of my partners and I've never had an issue with ego. If someone responded poorly to these simple questions, I'd walk away. Going through the list is also good for me - I climb so much with the same partners that everything is automatic and a lot is non-verbal - which can be bad if you fall into that pattern with a new person. I hate being halfway up a pitch and remembering to have the 'are you expecting me to lower or rap' conversation.

Given the parameters of the OP's question, the reality is that it is almost impossible to tell, and I don't think there is any magical pre-climb ritual that will tell you much.

Before the days of sport climbing, you'd just climb with a person for a while on routes you'd never fall on (guide-mode climbing: soloing with a rope on). Observing their general climbing skills and specific rope-handling performance usually gave you an excellent sense about how much you could trust them.

That is still the best way, but it doesn't begin to work at the gym or in a sport climbing context, where leader falls have to be caught on first and every subsequent climb together.

I think the best you can do in such a situation is to judge the character and behavior of the person. Do they handle gear knowledgeably, do they seem attentive or distracted in general, do they seem attuned to the nuances of climbing, does their knowledge extend beyond the absolute basics? Talk to them about where they've climbed, how long they've been climbing, how frequently they get out, whether they've had any epics, etc., not as some kind of interview, but as a generally interested participant in the kind to discussions all climbers have. Then go with your gut feeling. Imperfect as it is likely to be, I don't think you can do much better.

If you are going to test them and they agree to it, it should be on either closely bolted sport route or in the gym. You should tell them you plan to jump off without warning, but not when. Although such testing is not risk-free, I think the best way to do it is to begin with super short falls (the first one below the clipped pro), with the falls relatively close to the top of the route. Proceed to more substantial falls if all seems to be going well, hoping all along that the belayer's incompetence, if present,doesn't result in an injury to you.

Unfortunately, incompetence---unless really gross---doesn't manifest itself on every catch. And a distracted but otherwise competent belayer becomes incompetent through lack of attention.

As for initiating a low-altitude surprise test, there's a good chance that with slack and rope stretch you'll hit the ground with any belayer. I might add that I completely ruptured an ACL from a four-foot bouldering jump onto an excellent landing, so don't think such a test is risk-free.

Dont fall

Always rap

Thats the only way to be absolutely certain

;)

Chase D wrote:I was lucky to practice in the gym with my partners. But when we started climbing outside on a regular basis, it still took some mistakes in order to learn better technique. For example, getting short-roped a lot while clipping and taking some hard falls because my belayer didn't have enough slack in the system. Sometimes it's easier to learn what NOT to do while belaying. For me, I'm satisfied if my partner is a quick learner and learns from those mistakes. How else do you learn, right? I always have a 30 second talk while we're checking knots.."Remember the dynamic catch!!"

Climbing friend,

I must internet wang-slap you for perpetuating this myth. More slack does not do the giving of a soft catch. Movement of belayer body would be doing this. Perhaps more slack perhaps may be appropriate to prevent the person swing into roof lip or something, but this would rarely be issue if actual soft catch be given and if the person is not far, far less meaty than you.

Guy Keesee wrote:good topic.... and several good answers. Before I even think about going out with someone who I have never climbed with, I must meet and go "Bouldering" with them.... just to get to know them as a person. You can tell a lot in a few minutes. Then going out as a party of three works. You can watch somebody in action. Sport Climbing lets you see how a person climbs (and belays). For me, I need to have confidence in a partner before I go to the high and wild and trust my life to them, that takes a while.

+1.

frank minunni wrote:Hand them a device and hope for the best.

I'm with Frank, doing this helps keep the adventure in the sport

Aleks Zebastian wrote: Climbing friend, I must internet wang-slap you for perpetuating this myth.

Aleks your meatiness extends to your brain on this. You are spot on.

This whole dynamic catch bullshit is sooooo overrated. Give me a belayer who is attentive and is going to keep me off the deck and I'm a happy puppy. The dynamic catch being such a big deal is pretty new as far as I'm can tell. If I get a little jolt at the end, so what. And once you get some rope out, with the new skinny ropes, the fall should be pretty gentle anyway.

Sagan wrote: I'm with Frank, doing this helps keep the adventure in the sport

I hate to admit it but over the years, especially when there weren't that many climbers around, that's pretty much what I did at times.

Aleks Zebastian wrote:Movement of belayer body would be doing this.

Exactly. That's what "dynamic" means. This topic is typical with every aspect of climbing in that every person has their own opinion and their own idea of right and wrong. Whatever works for you and keeps you alive!

If someone new-ish to climbing is belaying me for the first time, it's going to be on a toprope. I will turn around and look at them and their brake hand every few moves.

If someone claims to be experienced, I will either do the same thing on a toprope, or lead on an easy climb (which is pretty much the only type I lead!).

I want to see that they are attentive, keep their eyes on me, their brake hand stays on the rope (I don't care about the whole pinch and slide vs. BUS method argument), that they keep the slack out of the rope or give me the appropriate amount of slack.

I won't just assume someone is a competent belayer because they tell me how experienced they are. And I would understand if they were apprehensive about my belaying them for the first time.