Hangboarding till failure?

After completing several hypertrophy hangboard phases and in the midst of one currently, I am wondering if "finishing each set to failure" is actually effective. It seems like that method is common when people discuss hypertrophy, but after some research there seems to be a mixed opinion on it. On one side I read people saying "go 100% and go until failure" or that the training should always be maximal intensity. On the other side read that "you should leave still feeling like you could do more" or "if your half crimp collapses during a rep, restart the rep". Does hand position collapse = failure? In the new eva lopez videos she talks about effort level and how there should still be 2-3 second margin level between where you stop the rep and where failure would occur. youtube.com/watch?v=hJhQduB…

In specific, I have noticed this with middle/pointer and ring/pinky 2 finger pocket training. The half crimp grip will sometimes start to collapse and extend at the end of a set. Does this mean that the weight needs to be subtracted? I've noticed that gains for those grips in specific has been much slower than the other grips, most of which feel like 60% intensity during the session. Maybe the reason is because those grips have not been as stimulated as the others in the past? Or because the intensity is too high?

I'm trying a phase right now using Eva's recommendations. It feels very very different than repeaters but I'm still seeing a steady progression in gains. I don't have much to offer other than that so far. In the long run I'm going to experiment with trying both styles in their own block and see what happens.

Jonathan Metzman wrote:...In specific, I have noticed this with middle/pointer and ring/pinky 2 finger pocket training. The half crimp grip will sometimes start to collapse and extend at the end of a set. Does this mean that the weight needs to be subtracted? I've noticed that gains for those grips in specific has been much slower than the other grips, most of which feel like 60% intensity during the session. Maybe the reason is because those grips have not been as stimulated as the others in the past? Or because the intensity is too high?

If other grips feel at 60% you should increase weight for those grips. The intention isnt to use equal weight on all grips but to employ approximately the same exertion in each grip. ie target weights that allow you to complete the set, but just barely for repeaters, and require the full 2 to 3 minute rest between sets (or whatever scheme you're using)

frankstoneline wrote: If other grips feel at 60% you should increase weight for those grips. The intention isnt to use equal weight on all grips but to employ approximately the same exertion in each grip. ie target weights that allow you to complete the set, but just barely for repeaters, and require the full 2 to 3 minute rest between sets (or whatever scheme you're using)

Okay, maybe its more like 80% intensity and if the intensity feels too easy then I will typically add more weight than usual the next session. The weight is vastly different for different grips.

frankstoneline wrote: but to employ approximately the same exertion in each grip. ie target weights that allow you to complete the set, but just barely for repeaters, and require the full 2 to 3 minute rest between sets (or whatever scheme you're using)

is "just barely" reasonable if the grip is collapsing ?

Jonathan Metzman wrote: Okay, maybe its more like 80% intensity and if the intensity feels too easy then I will typically add more weight than usual the next session. The weight is vastly different for different grips. is "just barely" reasonable if the grip is collapsing ?

If the weight is different and your exertion level seems reasonably similar then I'd say you have it right, as for the grip collapsing I dont have an answer. Generally the last rep of a set I find myself starting to sag a bit and dont worry too much about it, though someone with more experience insight ought to chime in with some more scientific/informed advice. I mis-understood your original post and thought you were doing all grips with same weight and this was mostly my point.

whatup Mertzman.

I've been getting into hangboarding recently and reading a ton about it, but I'm still a noob so take this with a grain of salt. In general with most strength workouts, I have been been coached to try to get it just right so that you can just barely or not quite finish the last set of each exercise. I don't know about sagging etc, but I try to make it a fight just to finish.

for me, i figure my workout design was nearly perfect when my first set feels like 90%, my second set feels like 95% and my third set feels like 99% and i just barely get it.

slim wrote:for me, i figure my workout design was nearly perfect when my first set feels like 90%, my second set feels like 95% and my third set feels like 99% and i just barely get it.

Is it worth having 2 or 3 sets instead of 1? Is 6 grips overkill? When I do 19 sets total (3x6 grips + 1 WU) I'm trashed afterwards.

Just posing questions from Eva's philosophy (as far as I can tell). Don't we want the least damaging workout that is still producing gains so that we can work on the skill based side (climbing) as much as possible?

dylanfllr wrote:whatup Mertzman. I've been getting into hangboarding recently and reading a ton about it, but I'm still a noob so take this with a grain of salt. In general with most strength workouts, I have been been coached to try to get it just right so that you can just barely or not quite finish the last set of each exercise. I don't know about sagging etc, but I try to make it a fight just to finish.

yoo dude!!! funny, I figured someone I would know would see this. ya i broke my leg back in February on falling off the top of a highball, and only did hangboarding/campusing for a month straight... kinda got more serious about it since then. I can totally make a fight for finishing the sets, it just seems that bad form is more counter productive/waste of time. come back east man or i'll see ya the next time im northwest

Chris Plesko wrote: Is it worth having 2 or 3 sets instead of 1? Is 6 grips overkill? When I do 19 sets total (3x6 grips + 1 WU) I'm trashed afterwards. Just posing questions from Eva's philosophy (as far as I can tell). Don't we want the least damaging workout that is still producing gains so that we can work on the skill based side (climbing) as much as possible?

my new theory is to alternating with 2 weeks of the 'rockprodigy' workout of 3 sets on 5-7 grips (18 sets) and1 week of the eva lopez style of max hangs (max weight/smallest edge, 1 rep 5-7 sec, 3 min rest). I feel that the max hangs are a good "progress sheet" to show what your maximum capabilities are. They also let me work on grips I can't do with the full rockprodigy hypertrophy yet (monos, shallow pockets, super thin edges) and it switches around the type of workout stress. It seems that doing hypertrophy on grips that you haven't built a bit of base strength on is mostly a waste of time (unless you're subtracting a lot of weight). Usually for me building up the base strength would take the whole phase, so I probably won't be able to do monos/shallow pockets for hypertrophy until a future hypertrophy phase- probably 4 or 8 months from now.

Chris Plesko wrote: Is it worth having 2 or 3 sets instead of 1? Is 6 grips overkill? When I do 19 sets total (3x6 grips + 1 WU) I'm trashed afterwards. Just posing questions from Eva's philosophy (as far as I can tell). Don't we want the least damaging workout that is still producing gains so that we can work on the skill based side (climbing) as much as possible?

that's a good question. i have read/heard about research going both ways on this - some saying you only need 1 set, some saying 3 sets is best. for me, i get stronger each set up to the third set (except for pinches, in which i am totally opposite, have no freakin idea why). it is really weird. my last couple rounds of HB workouts, i do 5 on 5 off 6 reps on all 3 sets, but increase weight approx 2.5 lbs per set, depending on how each set feels.

i do 7 grips, total of 21 sets. i used to do 2 more crack grips for a total of 27 sets, which is probably too much. i don't do as much crack climbing these days, so i haven't done the extra 2 grips lately.

i have kind of switched to a hybrid periodized workout (during the cold months). HB workouts on tuesdays, bouldering/climbing on thursdays, climb on the weekends. it seems like this has been working pretty well, in terms of getting strength and keeping technique.

Jonathan Metzman wrote: my new theory is to alternating with 2 weeks of the 'rockprodigy' workout of 3 sets on 5-7 grips (18 sets) and1 week of the eva lopez style of max hangs (max weight/smallest edge, 1 rep 5-7 sec, 3 min rest). I feel that the max hangs are a good "progress sheet" to show what your maximum capabilities are. They also let me work on grips I can't do with the full rockprodigy hypertrophy yet (monos, shallow pockets, super thin edges) and it switches around the type of workout stress. It seems that doing hypertrophy on grips that you haven't built a bit of base strength on is mostly a waste of time (unless you're subtracting a lot of weight). Usually for me building up the base strength would take the whole phase, so I probably won't be able to do monos/shallow pockets for hypertrophy until a future hypertrophy phase- probably 4 or 8 months from now.

Are you doing max weight on these other grips?

slim wrote: for me, i get stronger each set up to the third set (except for pinches, in which i am totally opposite, have no freakin idea why). it is really weird.

What do you mean you get stronger? If you did your set 3 weight in set 2 could you do it? I can see set one being a warm up but then if you maxed out set 2 would that be enough? I want to try next time I do repeaters so we'll see. FWIW I start set 1 and then add 5lbs set 2 and 5 more set 3. I'll often fail on the last could reps of set 3.

Also 5on/5off x6 is 30sec under load while I'm at ~50sec under load so over 3 sets that's 90sec vs 150 sec. Fairly big difference?

slim wrote:i have kind of switched to a hybrid periodized workout (during the cold months). HB workouts on tuesdays, bouldering/clitmbing on thursdays, climb on the weekends. it seems like this has been working pretty well, in terms of getting strength and keeping technique.

Keeping as much climbing in as possible is really helpful, especially if it's outdoor. If I could get 2 training sessions and 2 outdoor sessions a week in that would probably be ideal for me most of the year.

yeah, its weird. i'm weakest on the 1st set and strongest on my 3rd set. for example, i might flunk my 1st set, use the same weight for the 2nd set and get it, and then add weight for my 3rd set. i have no idea why. the obvious question would be whether my warmup was adequate, but my warmup is usually a solid 30 minutes.

the one big exception is my 4" pinch grip - i always dive after the first set. this is a weird grip for me though, i don't really get stronger throughout my phase (usually i get slightly stronger up to the 3rd workout and either plateau or go downhill), and i don't really get stronger from year to year. i don't know if it is the structure of my hand, or what, but it drives me crazy. all of my other grips are fairly normal.

the 30 second total versus the 50 second total could explain why you are feeling more wrecked. i tend to be able to recover a lot more quickly when i am more in the power spectrum.

slim wrote: the one big exception is my 4" pinch grip - i always dive after the first set. this is a weird grip for me though, i don't really get stronger throughout my phase (usually i get slightly stronger up to the 3rd workout and either plateau or go downhill), and i don't really get stronger from year to year. i don't know if it is the structure of my hand, or what, but it drives me crazy. all of my other grips are fairly normal.

this is exactly what I'm talking about. if you watch the eva lopez video she says that at too high of an effort level (where failure would result) you are essentially digging a hole and wasting time. It seems that the most effective training is when the max intensity is around 85-95% where your body can actually compensate and get stronger over time.

Its the same thing as saying that a 12a redpoint max/11c onsight max sport climber should only be projecting routes up to 12c, since trying a 13b line is too much stimulus and the body won't compensate effectively.

Chris Plesko wrote: Are you doing max weight on these other grips?

yes, but that might be body weight or less on the grips. What seems to be most important is that the rep is stopped about 2 seconds before the hand position would collapse (based on the video). So for the pockets, I will start with my fingers in the half-crimp position and stop 2 seconds before failure would force them into a open hand position. This would be a perfect point where the body can then compensate to the load.

Got it. What grips and number of sets are you doing? 3 min rest between each hang? Gets to be long quick!

I found when campusing my pure power was gone fast. 20 min max with lots of rest and I was done with quality. I'm curious how max hangs compare when you start adding more grips.

slim wrote: i have read/heard about research going both ways on this - some saying you only need 1 set, some saying 3 sets is best.

My recollection is that despite being murky, the research suggested that the first set would give you most of the benefit of the exercise(like 85%,) but that additional sets would continue to add a little more. Whether the additional time and work would benefit a particular climber will depend on that climber's specific weaknesses.

Mark E Dixon wrote: My recollection is that despite being murky, the research suggested that the first set would give you most of the benefit of the exercise(like 85%,) but that additional sets would continue to add a little more. Whether the additional time and work would benefit a particular climber will depend on that climber's specific weaknesses.

My question and self experiment with that is if less training gets me stronger and leaves me fresh enough to climb real rock more often then I can more quickly apply strength gains. Hopefully this minimizes the awkward phase I experienced after my first round of hypertrophy training.

one upside about doing more sets though, i think it prepares you better for a higher volume day. in other words, i think it gives you more good attempts at a project in a day. a couple weeks ago i was able to give 8 good efforts on projects in a single day (sent 3rd one on 8th effort). that was a good day - i felt like i was able to recover pretty decently after each effort.

slim wrote:one upside about doing more sets though, i think it prepares you better for a higher volume day. in other words, i think it gives you more good attempts at a project in a day. a couple weeks ago i was able to give 8 good efforts on projects in a single day (sent 3rd one on 8th effort). that was a good day - i felt like i was able to recover pretty decently after each effort.

But would PE or recovery be better trained off the hangboard? I don't know. I *definitely* have more attempts in me now though I don't know what to attribute it to. I used to have only one good limit burn before I was smoked. Now I have 3-4 at least if I give good rest and recovery between them.