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Good shoes for harder Gunks routes?

Original Post
Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450

Hi,

I'm working on following in the 11-11+ range in the Gunks, and some of the folks I climb with (who lead in that range and above) are recommending that I get some "higher performance" shoes. Not meaning to break rule #1 but ideally, you'd be comfortable on terrain at that difficulty or harder if you're commenting. I know what shoes work great for me on 5.9 already!

If you're not familiar with the Gunks, so far the crux footholds on the routes in that range seem to mostly be really tiny crystals and edges, as well as a bit of frontpointing/torquing into little vertical corner features. The terrain is usually not all that steep (other than the obvious horizontal parts that the area is famous for), usually 85-100 degrees.

Normally I climb in TC Pros that are fairly comfortable, and I crank the laces if I'm on something harder. Recently I've been busting out my Anasazis more frequently as well, and the curled-toe fit of those shoes does seem helpful. Both shoes are quite broken in, so they're not very stiff. Sportiva fits me well, I've had many of their shoes over the years.

A velcro closure would be nice, because I'm expecting that I'm going to want to be in and out of the high-performance shoes much more than I am my incredibly comfy TC pros.

Recommendations? Miura VS? Katana? A really tight pair of TC Pros? Something else?

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

This is a non-standard recommendation, but I'd look into a pair of Scarpa Feroce"s (NOT Force---Feroce). They're designed for multipitch sport climbing, so comfort, whatever that means for climbing shoes, was a consideration. A bit of downturn, excellent stiffness in the toe area but enough flexibility further back for decent smearing, alternating three-strap velcro closure, Vibram XS Edge on the bottom. There's a bit of a ridge under the toes to help with toe-gripping that I don't think adds anything for Gunks-style routes, but it doesn't hurt (either in terms of climbing or foot comfort). They're extremely well-made; I've never had any deterioration issues with any pair and I've had at least three.

I'm probably biased about the shoe because it fits me really well, which is always a major consideration.

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
rgold wrote:This is a non-standard recommendation, but I'd look into a pair of Scarpa Feroce"s (NOT Force---Feroce). A bit of downturn, excellent stiffness in the toe area but enough flexibility further back for decent smearing, three-strap velcro closure, Vibram XS Edge on the bottom. There's a bit of a ridge under the toes to help with toe-gripping that I don't think adds anything for Gunks-style routes, but it doesn't hurt (either in terms of climbing or foot comfort). They're extremely well-made; I've never had any deterioration issues with any pair and I've had at least three. I'm probably a little biased about the shoe because it fits me really well, which is always a major consideration.
Thanks Rgold! Ha, you rather definitely meet the definition of "comfortable on terrain at that difficulty" given that you've put up many of the great routes here in that range!

Interesting that you mention the smearing, I didn't put it into my already too long initial post, but I definitely notice that the tight, curled-toe fit of the Anasazis makes smearing harder, and there are many times here when you do need to throw a smear in amongst the edges, often at the crux, so that's a great point and a feature I'd like to preserve if possible.

You're right on about fit being king also: I actually tend to believe that mostly I just need to climb better, as even the relaxed fit TC Pros have been fairly famously demonstrated to climb way harder than I ever will.
S. Neoh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 35

Of course fit is king, always. If you have feet like mine, several models of Scarpa and Sportiva should fit you well. I have a pair of Vapor V which is my "everyday" shoe. When I find myself wanting a little more from the shoe in terms of precision and confidence on SMALL footholds, I wear my Katana Lace, not Katana V. The Lace has a simplified lacing system which, tho not as fast as Velcro, is faster compared to other laced shoes.
Oh, another thing, I do not think you want to get any shoe with a lot of downturn. Luckily none of the shoes mentioned here so far has that trait.
Oh, sizing; sz 7 Men street shoe, 39.5 for VV, 38.5 for KL. Once broken in, neither too tight, I can leave them on for about 2 hours.
Good luck! I miss the climbs at The Gunks!

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
S. Neoh wrote:Of course fit is king, always. If you have feet like mine, several models of Scarpa and Sportiva should fit you well. I have a pair of Vapor V which is my "everyday" shoe. When I find myself wanting a little more from the shoe in terms of precision and confidence on SMALL footholds, I wear my Katana Lace, not Katana V. The Lace has a simplified lacing system which, tho not as fast as Velcro, is faster compared to other laced shoes. Oh, another thing, I do not think you want to get any shoe with a lot of downturn. Luckily none of the shoes mentioned here so far has that trait. Oh, sizing; sz 7 Men street shoe, 39.5 for VV, 38.5 for KL. Once broken in, neither too tight, I can leave them on for about 2 hours. Good luck! I miss the climbs at The Gunks!
Thanks S...

Checking the shoes out at Rock and Snow I noticed that the Miura lace was a LOT stiffer than the katana or the TC. Fairly aggressive toe too. Any experience with the Miura?
Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
Nivel Egres wrote: I have used Miuras and Tarifas for harder (well, up to 12+ so more like moderate-hard) routes there. TC Pros are my new favorite for anything that does not have bouldering cruxes.
Ha, yes, I'm always getting teased about the TC's but they seem to do just about anything I ask them to do, and I can still leave them on for 8 or 10 hours at a time, so...

I do think I've still sized them a touch big, might change that for next time, but the ones I have are in way too good condition to justify another pair.
S. Neoh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 35
Optimistic wrote: Thanks S... Checking the shoes out at Rock and Snow I noticed that the Miura lace was a LOT stiffer than the katana or the TC. Fairly aggressive toe too. Any experience with the Miura?
When I went from leading moderates to leading moderately hard routes at The Gunks, I ditched my Mythos for Miuras from 2 or even 3 generations ago. Those were not downturned at all but stiff altho tolerable. That shoe stayed with me for about ten years (numerous resoles). Then came the trend towards Velcro shoes. I tried on the Miura VS and found the downturn and asymmetric toe impossible to deal with. Not even sure how one can do a real smear in those. I settled on the Scarpa VS for two years. Total coincident that I happened onto a shoe demo and chatted with Doug Madara. He talked me into at least testing the Katana Lace. Two plastic routes later I was sold on the KL. Sorry for the wordiness but I thought I share some personal historical context. I bleed yellow and purple/black, more so in the past than now. Oh, although I no longer climb at The Gunks, 85 to 100 deg routes REMAIN my favorite, preferably with roof capping the finish!
P.S. I have never tried the TC Pro so I can't really compare it to any shoe mentioned here. I would be concerned about lack of toe sensitivity tho. But maybe that is just a matter of getting used to it.
gtluke · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 1

I don't lead that hard but I find a flexible shoe more advantageous at the gunks because of how often you have to smear. I used to carry 2 pairs of shoes. One soft and one hard. The hard pair for tough face and Crack climbs. Now I just wear my Anasazi's everywhere (right between my soft and hard shoes) but I don't as often get on the 10d's as I used to.

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
m.outdoorgearlab.com/Climbi…
I ran across some really positive reviews of the la Sportiva
Genius on Outdoorgearlab, anybody have any experience with that shoe?

Their review is so positive it's almost a little hard to believe, although I've found their recommendations to be generally pretty reliable when I've taken them.
doublediamond100 · · Thousand Oaks, CA · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 0

I'm just starting to lead in the hard 10/easy 11 range, so I don't quite make the cutoff, but I figured I'd throw in a vote for the miura lace too. I have a pair of katana laces that I like for climbs that require hard edging on vertical to slightly overhanging terrain (usually rumney). But for the slightly less than vertical stuff you tend to see on harder climbs at the gunks I think the miuras offer a really good balance of edging and smearing ability. They're especially great if you resole them with a slightly softer and stickier rubber like C4 onyx.

S. Neoh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 35

^^^
Yup, I have had C4 on my Katana Lace for the past two or three seasons. Great combo. To the OP, sorry, no experience with the Genius.
One thing to note about Genius - 3mm sole will give you higher sensitivity at the expense of longevity. And the shoe will feel different if you were to resole with 4mm rubber.

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450

The Miura lace is a pretty different animal from the Miura VS I guess? Less aggressive downturn/asymmetry?

Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506
Optimistic wrote:The Miura lace is a pretty different animal from the Miura VS I guess? Less aggressive downturn/asymmetry?
Yup, the lace are less down-turned and aggressive but I find smear better, as well as are useable in thin cracks since the toes aren't as bent as the velcro version.
S. Neoh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 35

The Miura Lace also comes in Men's and Women's version. Some men seem to prefer the black and white Women's ML to the yellow-and black Men's. I think you just need to find a store closer to Newark/NYC which stocks the Katana Lace. Do a comparison and decide which one feels more comfortable and "higher performance" to you. The KL is definitely more comfortable on me than my old, old Muira Lace, even tho I took the same size n both. The ML had weird pressure points on the top of my foot, esp around the big toe.
Since neither the Muira Lace nor the Katana Lace is Velcro, you might want to also consider the Velcro offerings from Scarpa. Their mid/upper range shoes are well built. My 5 year old VV has almost zero wear on the uppers, except the Velcro is starting to loose its stickiness, which just reinforces my queasiness about executing Gunks style heel hooks wearing Velcro shoes.

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450

I'd definitely love to figure out a velcro option if possible, just for efficiency's sake...maybe the Feroce that Rgold suggested upthread? Looking at that shoe (just in the picture above) I wonder if it may cover the ground I've already got with the TC and Anasazi, but I'll have to scope it in person...

S. Neoh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 35

I know a number of really good all-around climbers who favor the Anasazi VCS (or Wmn's LV version). These people find 5.10 shoes fit better than Sportiva, the exact opposite as me. It looks like the VCS is "on sale" now. Under $130 for most sizes.

Ethan clarke · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 5

Scarpa boostics get my vote. Plenty stiff for edging but also one of the most versatile performance shoes out there. Perfect for the variety of foot placement your bound to find.

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
S. Neoh wrote:I know a number of really good all-around climbers who favor the Anasazi VCS (or Wmn's LV version). These people find 5.10 shoes fit better than Sportiva, the exact opposite as me. It looks like the VCS is "on sale" now. Under $130 for most sizes.
I have those and like them pretty well, but was hoping for something that edged a little better... That was what made me think of the Miura as it (at least in the VS version I was looking at) seemed really stiff (maybe TOO stiff!).
Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
Ethan clarke wrote:Scarpa boostics get my vote. Plenty stiff for edging but also one of the most versatile performance shoes out there. Perfect for the variety of foot placement your bound to find.
Interesting idea...enthusiastic review here as well
gearinstitute.com/climbing/…
Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450

Tried on the Katana lace today in a 44 (they didn't have bigger), currently I wear the TC in a slightly too big 45.

I have very limited experience with fitting high performance shoes like this. They were as small as they could possibly have been and still allowed my foot inside. Basically the shoe felt pretty unpleasantly tight across the knuckles of my toes but fine everywhere else. And that was just weighting them for a brief time. Are they going to stretch a fair bit across the top of the toe box? I'll try the 44.5 too when Rock and Snow gets 'em in stock, but I feel like I'm kind of in uncharted waters as to how to size them.

BTW I looked at the genius there too, those things are crazy! I'd worry that they'd be impossible to resolve...

S. Neoh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 35
Optimistic wrote:Tried on the Katana lace today in a 44 (they didn't have bigger), currently I wear the TC in a slightly too big 45. I have very limited experience with fitting high performance shoes like this. They were as small as they could possibly have been and still allowed my foot inside. Basically the shoe felt pretty unpleasantly tight across the knuckles of my toes but fine everywhere else.
The KL do not stretch a lot across the toe box so it looks like 44 is a tad small for you. My toes are only slightly curled and squished together in my KL.
As I said, I can stand to have mine on for about two hours at a go (no walking around) and yet feel that I can stand on SMALL footholds with confidence. YMMV or the toe box is just too narrow for your foot.
Edit to add: mountainproject.com/v/katan…
I downsized to 38.5 KL while my street shoe size is 39.5/40. Note that I have made the toe box on mine as wide as it would go. Now I remember, as I was breaking in the shoe (took quite a while), I would get pressure points on the pinkie side of my feet from the toe box. Eventually it (everything in that area is synthetic) molded to my foot and all is well, even after multiple resoles.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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