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By Orphaned
Dec 5, 2013

Hello everyone,

Having just moved from the east coast my concept of grades seems to be off from the local concensus. In order to adjust I am looking for some routes and Boulders that the locals around Golden consider to be benchmarks for the grade. I am looking for routes that are consistent, not one-move-wonders. Here are the grades I'm looking for:

V2
V3
V4
V5
V6
V7
V8

5.9
5.10a
5.11a
5.11c
5.12a
5.12c
5.13a

The closer to Golden the better. Thanks.


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By kiff
Dec 5, 2013

well for one thing V5 is definitely germ free adolescence...


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By JCM
From Henderson, NV
Dec 5, 2013

I see that you are caving in to the whining about stiff grades.


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By ScoRo
From Portland, OR
Dec 5, 2013
Ahhhh, remember the hair and pay tribute to it.

Colorado is stiff? Maybe right now because it's so cold...

;)


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By reboot
From Westminster, CO
Dec 5, 2013

12a wet dream
12c ten digit dialing
13a sonic youth

I don't get the whining about gym grades. I've never been able to send as hard in the gym (including Movement, which everyone likes to say is soft) as outside. So what, BFD. As long as grades are consistent between routes in the gym, who cares. It's training.


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By nicelegs
From Denver
Dec 5, 2013

5.9, who cares

5.10a doesn't matter if not in Eldo

5.11a This is a poorly defined grade everywhere.

5.11c Max Factor

5.12a Wet Dream or

Brashear's Crack

12c, rarely exists in any real quality. This grade is always super short, actually 12b or actually 13a.

13a, hard to define and hotly debated on the front range. I would suggest Vasodilator
Ultrasaurus
and
Sonic Youth and you can decide what the grade should mean.

There isn't a "grade" or "standard" on the front range. It's probably the most random and mixed up area. We've got strong kids, old pro's, and whiny little bitches all contributing to the consensus.

We also have Faber and Slim throwing the grades all out of whack.


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By jarthur
From Westminster, CO
Dec 5, 2013
My dogs got ups yo!

Awesome! This thread should keep us busy for a few weeks. I only wish you had come up with this at the beginning of the week.

I'll start. Germ Free is NO WAY benchmark V5. It's just a scary ass mantle. If your feet pop grabbing the lip you'll go shooting past your pads like I did the first time I got on it. I'd say Mavericks is a good baseline for the grade.

As for a few more opinions:
5.9 = Lunchmoney @ Capitalist Crag in CCC
5.12a = Balkan Dirt Diving @ Sport Wall in CCC
5.12c = Sucking My Will to Live in CCC
5.13a = Sonic Youth in CCC

As for the V2-V6 range I doubt anyone will agree on that and I can't even think of any 5.10a, 5.11a, 5.11c's in the Golden area.


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By JCM
From Henderson, NV
Dec 5, 2013

Anyway, as to the original question, I don't know if there really are benchmark "Golden area" grades, since the climbing around here is spread out between a lot of different areas and styles. Someone who mostly climbs in Eldo (stiff) is going to have a vastly different idea of what 11a is than someone who climbs a lot at North Table (soft like kitten). If you want to choose a particular standard routes for the Golden area, though, then perhaps Clear Creek is the best gauge. Grades there are generally on the soft side, within the national context at least, which may explain why locals are complaining about stiff gym grades.

Here is a list of some of the more notable routes at each grade in Clear Creek. I chose these not because they are necessarily benchmarks at each grade, but rather because they are the best/most popular routes, so anyone who climbs that grade is likely familiar with them. Even if you don't use them for grading benchmarks, they are all worth putting on the to-do list.

11a: Reefer Madness, Wall o' 90s. Techy.
11c: Curvaceous, Wall o' 90s. Long sustained route.
12a: Wet Dream, Wall o' 90s. Also quite sustained, no hard moves.
12b: Peer Review, Highlander. This route gets sun and is good in winter.
12c: This is a good grade in Clear Creek, but most of the routes in the grade are quite soft. Ten Digit Dialing, The Great Escape, and Sucking My Will to Live are all notable, but not necessarily "benchmarks".
12d: Anarchitect, Anarchy Wall Pretty hard/techy for grade.
13a: Sonic Youth, New River Wall: Used to be 12d or soft 13a, but proper 13a post-breakage. Quite varied.
13b: Stuffed Wolf, High Profile. Incredible route, power endurance. Set a simulator for this one!
13b: Public Solitude, Primo. A heinous, horrible, yet popular route.
13c-14: Various routes at Primo, plus the Kimball routes at New River Wall.

Unfortunately, given recent meteorology, all of these routes may be frigid cold and snowy for quite some time.


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By D.Buffum
Dec 5, 2013
Orgasm Direct, Devil's Lake, 5.11a  c. 2008

nicelegs wrote:
5.11a This is a poorly defined grade everywhere.


Actually, I find 5.11a is one of the most consistent grades at Devil's Lake. Vivisection, Beginner's Demise, Orgasm Direct, Thoroughfare, Son of Great Chimney all seem roughly comparable to me.

Now back to the thread...


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By reboot
From Westminster, CO
Dec 5, 2013

D.Buffum wrote:
Actually, I find 5.11a is one of the most consistent grades at Devil's Lake...

Fine, we'll amend the sentence to:

5.11a This is a poorly defined grade everywhere that matters.


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By JCM
From Henderson, NV
Dec 5, 2013

reboot wrote:
Fine, we'll amend the sentence to: 5.11a This is a poorly defined grade everywhere that matters.


Burn. Although by this logic, your modified statement would no longer apply to our shitty Front Range chosspiles either.


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By reboot
From Westminster, CO
Dec 5, 2013

JCM wrote:
Burn. Although by this logic, your modified statement would no longer apply to our shitty Front Range chosspiles either.

I know, at least we can laugh about it. Front Range doesn't really have good areas or crags, it just have some good routes spread all over.
nicelegs wrote:
We also have Faber and Slim throwing the grades all out of whack.

Don't forget we also have Tank Evans mildly sandbagging on MP.com. Although if you happen to get on routes he decided to grade, you are climbing pretty well.


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By D.Buffum
Dec 5, 2013
Orgasm Direct, Devil's Lake, 5.11a  c. 2008

reboot wrote:
Fine, we'll amend the sentence to: 5.11a This is a poorly defined grade everywhere that matters.


C'mon up to the Lake and we'll give you a climbing lesson. And a history lesson too.


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By JCM
From Henderson, NV
Dec 5, 2013

D.Buffum wrote:
C'mon up to the Lake and we'll give you a climbing lesson. And a history lesson too.


How about a cow-tipping lesson? I hear that while the climbing in Wisconsin is mediocre, the cow-tipping is truly world class.


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By Ryan Nevius
From The Range of Light
Dec 5, 2013
Mt. Agassiz

Where did the OP ever mention anything about grades being "stiff"? Benchmark != stiff.


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By Sendstown
Dec 5, 2013

cow tipping, cheese curds and watery beer. Thank god for Wisconsin!


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By D.Buffum
Dec 5, 2013
Orgasm Direct, Devil's Lake, 5.11a  c. 2008

Another thread with more proof that Colorado climbers are ignorant and conceited.


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By JCM
From Henderson, NV
Dec 5, 2013

No, we're just taking potshots at each other and everyone else because it is like 2 degrees outside today.


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By D.Buffum
Dec 5, 2013
Orgasm Direct, Devil's Lake, 5.11a  c. 2008

JCM wrote:
No, we're just taking potshots at each other and everyone else because it is like 2 degrees outside today.


Ditto. 15 here and dropping, and I still have to walk the dog.


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By Taylor J
From new mexico, new england
Dec 5, 2013
My home project.... <br /> <br /><em>Eds. It may be called "The Compactor".</em>

Ryan Nevius wrote:
Where did the OP ever mention anything about grades being "stiff"? Benchmark != stiff.


He was implying a difference in grading sorry if I used the wrong wording. I was curious to see what he thought the difference was he never stated that.


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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Dec 5, 2013
Insurrection, 5.14c.  Photo Adam Sanders.

reboot wrote:
As long as grades are consistent between routes in the gym, who cares.


Exactly right.


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By Tyson Ferryman
From Bailey, CO
Dec 6, 2013
Tyson Ferryman on Bang Bang Bang. Photo by Mike M.

My thoughts (just some stuff I've done that seemed about right):

at 5.10: some stuff on Catslab. Ex.Jellicle Cats at 5.10a/b.
the wall of 90's 10s. Like Pretty Woman at 5.10a.
Little Eiger: Persistent Vegetative State at 5.10b.
Eiger Sanction at 5.10d.

5.11: agree with Reefer Madness at 5.11a.
and Curvaceous at 5.11c and Eiger Direct at 5.11d
Herb-A-Med-Veg-A-Matic and Lil' Dog are good for comparison at
5.11a/b.

Others have more experience than me, so take these ideas with that in mind...


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By Tyson Ferryman
From Bailey, CO
Dec 6, 2013
Tyson Ferryman on Bang Bang Bang. Photo by Mike M.

For bouldering I believe that Morrison problems are often used as area standards. Again, my experience is limited, but some thoughts:

V1: Breashears' Crack V1, In The Beginning (awesome for the grade!).
V2: Cocaine Arete.
V3: Breashear's Crack II V3.

V5: Helicopter, Air Jordan, Squirming Coil, Double Arete.
V6: Ghost Dance over at the Millenium Boulder.

Just some ideas, hope I don't get flamed too bad ;)


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By lucander
From Stone Ridge, NY
Dec 6, 2013
Lucander off the GT Ledge on p. 2 of Keep on Struttin.

"Another thread with more proof that Colorado climbers are ignorant and conceited."

Look at it this way. They play in the climbing version of Yankee Stadium and Wisconsin is like Three Rivers Stadium. Glorious moments, famous faces, iconic routes vs. scrappy crags, gritty climbers, and an occasional all-star. They got Babe Ruth, you got Bobby Bonilla.


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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Dec 6, 2013
Stabby

For gym bouldering ratings? You should just avoid the trial and error period and go straight to beg., int., and adv.

In fact, I think even the roped routes should have the same designation. Leave the 5th class for outside. You can add pluses or minuses if one just has to be so anal about an abstract concept anyway. Its a gym and I think taking the V and 5 ratings out of it would actually help users advance faster by changing perceptions.

I'll get flamed for this, but Castlewood is filled with solid FR benchmarks that most relate to gym climbing. Too late for Devils Head this year, but also full of benchmark ratings.


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By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Dec 6, 2013
At the BRC

Mike Lane wrote:
For gym bouldering ratings? You should just avoid the trial and error period and go straight to beg., int., and adv. In fact, I think even the roped routes should have the same designation. Leave the 5th class for outside. You can add pluses or minuses if one just has to be so anal about an abstract concept anyway. Its a gym and I think taking the V and 5 ratings out of it would actually help users advance faster by changing perceptions.


I'll second this suggestion.
Especially for bouldering, why is there any need for any ratings at all when the problems are maybe 15 feet high? Just get on something that appeals and either send it or fall off! Repeat as needed...
My impression is that people would try harder problems if they didn't know the grade.

As for routes, I think it'd be the opposite if there weren't any ratings. People would be more conservative, but what a great skill set to acquire- look up at a route, evaluate the moves and decide for yourself if you should climb it.

It's a pipe dream. I've tried to convince the Spot to drop the ratings, but no go. People think they want the difficulty, but usually they want the number more.

Sorry for the thread drift.


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