I was told this about Shelf Road in 1990. Do you folks really believe this?

Well mountain project doesn't list any routes over 5.13, hadn't 14d, been done by then?

What I thought; (about the statement) was that the guy who authored it, probably couldn't do all of the routes there when he said it. And for that matter most folks can't do them all either. I know that Rifle took over for most all of the top end stuff, but Shelf Road still has plenty of Hard Climbing.

I guess it depends on your definition of hard. Shelf has routes up to 13d and a few projects that are probably harder, but 13d is a grade that is onsighted by the good women climbers.

For most of us humans... myself included.

13d is hard.

and yes Shelf Road has some hard climbing.



That being said I think the ratings are a little soft. I onsighted an 11c/d last time I was there and normally that's just above my level. Maybe I am finally getting stronger and better at this 'climbing' thing.

Brett:

"The good women climbers"? How about saying the world's elite women climbers onsite 13d. To me, good climbers can onsight about 5.10. and expert climbers 5.10-5.12. Gender has nothing to do with it.

so was this of a question of what "hard" and "good climber" means, or whether there are any hard routes at shelf?

The climbing at Shelf is so easy that even a caveman can do it!!!

elite cavemen

by the way, he was eating a banana when he mentioned it

I am ok with using the word "elite".

Without opening a can of worms here, my "gender" point is that the average "elite" woman doesn't onsight as hard as the average "elite" man.

In Europe, 5.13 is not considered hard. You see men and women of all ages climbing this grade with no fanfare.

Maybe as Americans we unintentionally hold ourselves back by our collective definitions of what is a good climber and what is a hard grade, especially when you consider that the mental aspect of climbing is probably the most important when pushing one's limits.

Brett:

I agree with you on everything you said. 5.13 is not considered hard climbing by Europe's Hard men and Women, but the general climbing community's opinion is probably different.

I climbed in the Gunks/adirondacks a lot when I was growing up. When I first moved to Colorado I too felt that the grades were softer in general.

Today, Five years later I have adjusted and need to visit the gunks again to get a feel for it.

Brett, step away from the tar baby!

As for the E Coast/W Coast, it really depends on the crag and the route. Grades at Shelf are not comparable to those in Eldo or Rifle. But even at Shelf there's a lot of variability between routes put up back in the day (hard) and those put up since the acquisition of Cactus (soft). Speaking of crags with no hard routes, my experience at the Gunks makes me think its a bit sandbagged, but I think style has a lot to do with it too. That quartzite wouldn't feel so slick with a nice fat bolt at your waist.

As for the "no hard routes", obviously this is a bit of an exageration, but the underlying point is valid. By modern standards, there is no concentration of hard routes at Shelf. There is one 13d, maybe two 13cs, and a few 13b's. There are a few projects that may or may not be climbable. I think the intent is to say, if you want to go somewhere to climb "hard" routes, you shouldn;t go to shelf, you shold go to Rifle, or wherever. If you want to climb $hitloads of 4-star 11's & 12's, in a beautiful setting, over-run with aggresive dogs, shelf is the place to be.

I forgot Triage, so I'll concede there might be 2 13d's, if one assumes Triage & Damage are 13d. Having redpointed the latter, I'm not convinced. I hear there's a route at the Great Black North that has not been redpointed that might be ~14a.

Monomaniac:

You nailed it with the words "by Modern Standards" meaning the upper end of the difficulty levels I assume. I knew what he ment when he said it, but it sounded so egotistical to me being a young intermediate climber at the time. Especially when I doubted that even he could climb all of the routes there at the time.

Tree business was worth showing up for, but way off. We're back in the Valley, giving the minitrak a workout. I am woefully out of shape. KK hasn't climbed much, if at all, since I left. Ollie is honed.

which wall is damage on? if i remember right it is on a wall that is north of the north end? can't seem to remember.

mono hit it on the head describing shelf grades. the old routes (pre 1990 or so) are waaayy harder than the new ones. a lot of the new rico routes are close to a number grade soft, but he says it is consensus. i think it is hard to draw a good consensus from a bunch of kids that have been climbing in a gym for about a year and don't realize that different types and locations of climbing take a while to get used to. guess it strokes the ego though....