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Colorado Thief caught in the act at Smith
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By jeff walker
Jan 1, 2011
P LaDouche wrote:
I'm sorry, does the word pinkpointer make you feel the need to call me an ass? I just say it as I see it Julian, pinkpointers/gym climbers seem to feel like they have some special power to call the shots at world class climbing areas and I think thats complete bullshit. 14a, 5.8+, it doesnt matter. The rules shouldnt change, clean your shit up or take the risk of it going home with someone else. Its just a few draws, if they are that important to you then take your draws home with you, its simple. It all boils down to lazy behavior really, how long would it take someone projecting a climb to actually hang the draws without getting too pumped on a climb above their actual onsite level so they could give it a few burns that day? an hour at most.


judging from your response it is clear that the answer to JukianM's question is no, you are not as big an ass in real life. you are actually an even bigger ass in real life than you are on the internet. i'll bet you are an even bigger ass than most of us can imagine.

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By Tim Pegg
Jan 1, 2011
Me on Hallett Peak's 2nd Buttress.
phillip wrote:
Behold, the klepto-gumbie mind at work!


Thanks for addressing the point I was making. I'm glad that you can really engage in conversations which might be difficult for you and others who may hold different view points.

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By phillip
Jan 1, 2011
Tim Pegg wrote:
Thanks for addressing the point I was making. I'm glad that you can really engage in conversations which might be difficult for you and others who may hold different view points.


Please tell me the point of this:

Tim Pegg wrote:
Sounds to me like the highpoint was the draw on the last bolt. If I booty that one, then come back the next day can I assume that the second-highest draw is also on the highpoint and booty that, too?


Do you really not know to leave a line of draws alone? That you talk of booty-ing draws shows that you are not concerned with the visual impacts and are, in fact, a thief.

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By P LaDouche
From CO
Jan 1, 2011
jeff walker wrote:
judging from your response it is clear that the answer to JukianM's question is no, you are not as big an ass in real life. you are actually an even bigger ass in real life than you are on the internet. i'll bet you are an even bigger ass than most of us can imagine.


Hey, yet another name caller that cant argue any of the points I have made! I probably wouldnt even be posting on the thread if the guy confronting the elf hadnt made such a douchy comment about the grade of the climb. Plus I have spent many hours of my life hanging draws before sending and it hasnt killed me yet. Clipping worn out biners is another story all together.

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By taylorpur
From vancouver, bc
Jan 1, 2011
dont want to risk having your gear stolen, dont leave it unattended

red point is ground up placing all gear be it draws or what ever

having draws in place makes a climb faster and easier to send

if i left my mountain bike at a trail head with the intent to ride it the next day i wouldnt be suprised when i returned to find it gone.

look after your stuff if you want to keep it.

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By jeff walker
Jan 1, 2011
taylorpur wrote:
dont want to risk having your gear stolen, dont leave it unattended red point is ground up placing all gear be it draws or what ever having draws in place makes a climb faster and easier to send if i left my mountain bike at a trail head with the intent to ride it the next day i wouldnt be suprised when i returned to find it gone. look after your stuff if you want to keep it.


interesting line of argument here. "if something of yours gets stolen it's your fault, you should have been more careful" -- this is the sort of rationale used by thieves to justify their actions. if this is the way you think, then you, too, are either a thief or potential thief since you believe it is the victim's fault that he got robbed.

the "keebler elf" character in this video wasn't making an ethical statement, he was stealing. when you say that if you left your mountain bike at a trailhead and came back to find it gone, and that this wouldn't surprise you, are you also saying that the thief's actions are justified and that if you caught him in the act you wouldn't try to stop him from taking your bike? after all, you are the moron who left there so by your own argument you deserve to lose it.

somehow i suspect you'd try to get your bike back.

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By P LaDouche
From CO
Jan 1, 2011
JLP wrote:
Pinkpointer. I found your posts interesting until this thread.

Yes but not a lazy ass pinkpointer. Big difference.

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By Christopher M.
From Campton, NH
Jan 1, 2011
Bad photo but the only one i have that isnt 3 years old. I am not much of a camra person...
taylorpur wrote:
dont want to risk having your gear stolen, dont leave it unattended red point is ground up placing all gear be it draws or what ever having draws in place makes a climb faster and easier to send if i left my mountain bike at a trail head with the intent to ride it the next day i wouldnt be suprised when i returned to find it gone. look after your stuff if you want to keep it.


What if you left your car at the trailhead overnight, would you expect it to be there the next day?

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By phillip
Jan 1, 2011
taylorpur wrote:
red point is ground up placing all gear be it draws or what ever


Quick draws don't work very well without bolts- do bolts and hangers have to be removed after each attempt and reinstalled on lead, as well?

taylorpur wrote:
having draws in place makes a climb faster and easier to send


Now you're getting it! Welcome to sport climbing!

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By Matthew P
From Saint George, UT
Jan 1, 2011
Possibly related, between the 28th and 29th of December, the Virgin River Gorge had some draws stolen. The majority of them (8 or so) were taken from the first bolt of hung routes. A less-steep 13a (Space Race) had the entire route cleared. I assumed someone finished their project and cleaned it. After watching the vid here though, this route would be right up neck-beard's style and easier to clean than a lot of routes here. In addition, VRG would be right on this neck-beard's drive home if he went through vegas to utah.

edit: mistakenly said stolen bolts, but meant draws. Hilarity follows in next two posts.

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By Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Jan 1, 2011
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Peak.
So quickdraw stealing is a sort of gateway drug to bolt stealing?

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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Jan 1, 2011
Bocan
Stich wrote:
So quickdraw stealing is a sort of gateway drug to bolt stealing?


Duh....how the heck can you hang your stolen draws without stolen bolts?? :o)

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By Mike Anderson
From Dayton, OH
Jan 1, 2011
Matthew P wrote:
Possibly related, between the 28th and 29th of December, the Virgin River Gorge had some bolts stolen. The majority of them (8 or so) were taken from the first bolt of hung routes. A less-steep 13a (Space Race) had the entire route cleared. I assumed someone finished their project and cleaned it. After watching the vid here though, this route would be right up neck-beards style and easier to clean than a lot of routes here. In addition, VRG would be right on this neck-beards drive home if he went through vegas to utah.


That might be "Killis Howard" who lives in the Vegas area, he has been known to snag draws at the VRG.

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By EMT
Jan 1, 2011
me bouldering in MT
I think that local ethics are good for climbing really. I don't like seeing draws hanging for days on end, but in some areas it's the way it is. Sillly to over discuss the draw thing when it's the cliff base and cliff top veg. that is most obviously fucked up in some areas, and sometimes because of a lack of rap bolts


The thing that messes with my mind is how this guy could waste a day stealing draws at a place like smith, where the climbing in every grade is so good? I mean why would he not be climbing some of those fun routes? That's crazy.

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By rangerdrew
From Loveland
Jan 3, 2011
Evans Aprons
rockandice.com/component/conte...

The video was posted on the Rock and Ice website.

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By greenhorn
Jan 4, 2011
After 8 pages of almost entirely cliche and predictable opinions, I remember why I don't frequent these sort of sites often. If it were not for the levity that the "Burbs" clip, "eat your beard" article, and a handful of other individual's clever witicisms provided, I would be hard pressed to say that this time spent was redeemable in any way.

Logically, you cannot argue that one should not leave his/her draws on the basis of fixed gear being an "eyesore", without concluding in addition that one should not leave bolts, hangers, chains, webbing, tat, rap rings, tents, cars, blah, blah... you get the picture. Therefore, if you are going to be a nazi about fixed draws, you better be consistent--your pack is mine if you leave the ground without it!

Pink-pointing/red-pointing/not-pointing--who cares! I have never met an admirable climber that got hung up on something so trivial and insignificant as another's decision of how to ascend a piece of rock. If another man sits, or stands when he pees, it doesn't affect me. And, please don't say that it blocks your ability to cleanly ascend a pitch in "good style". If you're such a purest, take the draw off the "fixed bolt", put your own draw on, and rejoice in the small contrived difficulty you've created in pursuit of "keeping it real".

Last issue, for those who defend the "thief" on the grounds of his community service to the park and its cleanliness... He was so flustered when he was descending the route that he accidently left his own two draws on the first two bolts. He is just another park "vandalizer" leaving fixed gear, but with a sweet hat and some good looking hair.

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By tenpins
Jan 4, 2011
greenhorn wrote:
.... but with a sweet hat and some good looking hair.



truly, the sole lesson to be taken.

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By Tim Pegg
Jan 4, 2011
Me on Hallett Peak's 2nd Buttress.
phillip wrote:
Do you really not know to leave a line of draws alone? That you talk of booty-ing draws shows that you are not concerned with the visual impacts and are, in fact, a thief.


It's hardly theft if I booty a nut in Eldo. And I like free gear as much as the next guy. The rule you proposed was that "...a biner or two left on a highpoint of a route = booty.
However, someone's draws hanging on a route = NOT YOURS!"

I wanted to explore what I think was a flaw in your reasoning. That is, a quickdraw is two carabiners with some webbing, and you stated that qualifies as booty on the highpoint of a route. So, if I steal the top draw on a line, isn't that fair booty according to YOUR rules?

I have my own opinions on the matter of permanent draws, but I don't think they're so important. I think that our friend the leprechaun did was impolite, and I wouldn't booty a line of draws. But what I'm annoyed at is that rather than re-examine your ruleset, you called me a "klepto-gumby". I've never stolen anything in my life (unless that one booty-ed nut and a sling count), so you can spare me the klepto title.

Instead, what I wanted to do was explore exactly where someone crosses the line between fair play booty and what the community considers theft. The line isn't always well-demarcated. Since I've done enough climbing that I've had to bail, I can tell the difference between a line of draws and an abandoned carabiner. But the distinction between the two might not be obvious to someone just a little less seasoned than myself. I don't doubt that the leprechaun should know better, but the question in the case of honest people might be something like "when I find some gear left on a chunk of rock, when do I need to make an honest effort to find the owner?"

As for what to do with people like the leprechaun, find out how the relevant authority defines abandoned property in the Smith Rock State Park. If people like him are legally committing theft, drag them to a ranger. If they're not, don't leave your draws behind, or be prepared to patrol for wankers every day.

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By Jeremy Kasmann
From Denver, CO
Jan 4, 2011
Tim Pegg wrote:
The line isn't always well-demarcated.



Actually, it is almost always obvious. What Phillip said makes sense.

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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2011
Bocan
Although...and take this with a grain of salt...the whole Trad= ok to take, sport = not ok is a HUGE double standard. Maybe because I'm more of a traddy, but a guy can't get a cam stuck for 1/2 day or have to bail, but draws can be left up forever? There isn't even enough time for a guy to go back up the next morning before someone steals "booties?" it. It's not like the person is really abandoning it, sort of like if your car breaks down.

Just an observation how we have two completely contrary sets of rules for "almost" the same thing. Kind of lame really....especially because trad gear usually costs a bit more than a $14 draw.

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By taylorpur
From vancouver, bc
Jan 5, 2011
jeff walker wrote:
interesting line of argument here. "if something of yours gets stolen it's your fault, you should have been more careful" -- this is the sort of rationale used by thieves to justify their actions. if this is the way you think, then you, too, are either a thief or potential thief since you believe it is the victim's fault that he got robbed. the "keebler elf" character in this video wasn't making an ethical statement, he was stealing. when you say that if you left your mountain bike at a trailhead and came back to find it gone, and that this wouldn't surprise you, are you also saying that the thief's actions are justified and that if you caught him in the act you wouldn't try to stop him from taking your bike? after all, you are the moron who left there so by your own argument you deserve to lose it. somehow i suspect you'd try to get your bike back.



i would not have to try to get my bike back because i would not leave it there in the first place. until the world is a wonderful utopia where every one respects other peoples property i will continue to look after my belongings rather then leave them unattended for any one to take.

im saying be responsible for your own gear, don't cry to me that some one stole your stuff that you left behind.

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By Tim Pegg
Jan 5, 2011
Me on Hallett Peak's 2nd Buttress.
Jeremy Kasmann wrote:
Actually, it is almost always obvious. What Phillip said makes sense.


You obviously read my whole post. Also, "almost always" isn't always.

Edit: Scott- I had the same kind of thing in mind, but I really don't want to wander into "trad v. sport" territory.

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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2011
Bocan
Tim Pegg wrote:
Edit: Scott- I had the same kind of thing in mind, but I really don't want to wander into "trad v. sport" territory.


Yeah I've resisted myself, but it cracks me up a crag is filled with draws and a cam is gone in a second in Eldo.

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By jackkelly00
Jan 5, 2011
He is now a wanted man. If he ever wants to climb again, he will have to shave his well groomed neck beard and ditch his sweet hat.

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By Chris Plesko
From Westminster, CO
Jan 5, 2011
OMG, I winz!!!
There are places where trad gear is left insitu while people work a route. I won't say where but the lines are hard enough to access that no one is going to be pulling it down on rap and it's accepted that it stays up.

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