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Colorado Thief caught in the act at Smith
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By AndrewHou
Dec 30, 2010

il cop wrote:
This guy is brilliant; an asshole, but brilliant... - He makes a good chunk of cash reselling free gear; he cannot suffer any legal ramifications; and as for his conscience...even the climbing community he steals from can't come to a consensus regarding the ethics pertaining to gear on routes. -I live in NYC, I climb in the Gunks, we don't leave gear, but we also don't have much fixed gear to leave it on. -Leaving draws on a route in absentia implies, to me, some sense of ownership over that line for the duration of the project....something I'm confident we're all against.



What about fixed pins, like on Fat City Direct? I don't see anybody complaining about clipping knifeblades left in cruxy sections.


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By 8egg.nu
Dec 30, 2010

AndrewHou wrote:
What about fixed pins, like on Fat City Direct? I don't see anybody complaining about clipping knifeblades left in cruxy sections.


I complain about clipping jingus pins all the time. can't get enough of the solid ones though, love those things!

Personally I'd like to thank the bad ass climbers fixing draws for:
1. making it so i can try routes a bit over my head without risking leaving bail gear. I've only gotten stronger for it.
2. bolting and equiping new routes at the same old areas for all of us to enjoy.

Thanks for the hard work folks. one day i hope to chip in!


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By -sp
From East-Coast
Dec 30, 2010
Buenos Dias!

Kevin J OBrien wrote:
Everybody that visits Smith Rock is not a climber!!!!! Try thinking of others experience for once!!!


If you climbed as hard as you use apostrophes, I don't think we'd be having this discussion. But please continue, the misguided support of your ginger-haired brethren is amusing.


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By Tim Pegg
Dec 30, 2010
Me on Hallett Peak's 2nd Buttress.

phillip wrote:
Second, a biner or two left on a highpoint of a route = booty. However, someone's draws hanging on a route = NOT YOURS!


Sounds to me like the highpoint was the draw on the last bolt. If I booty that one, then come back the next day can I assume that the second-highest draw is also on the highpoint and booty that, too?


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By Kevin J OBrien
From Santa Fe, NM
Dec 30, 2010

How many non-climbers do you see on Mountain Project?


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By 8egg.nu
Dec 30, 2010

Kevin J OBrien wrote:
How many non-climbers do you see on Mountain Project?

reading this thread it seems like tons of them.


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By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Dec 30, 2010
You stay away from mah pig!

CoffeeClimber wrote:
You'll never see a trad route with a bunch of TCU's and C4's stuck in it because dude is "working" the route.


Uhhh... ever heard of stuck/semi-permanent gear? Yo yo ascents? First free ascents that clip fixed pitons?

You really don't know what you're talking about.


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By Buff Johnson
Dec 30, 2010
smiley face

If anyone was actually thinking at the time, someone coulda tensioned the line whilst the infractee was cleaning draws; then had a real nice bbq at the base of the route, maybe add a few fireworks throughout the course of the evening. I mean these things can last until 3 to 4 in the morning.


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By phillip
Dec 30, 2010

Tim Pegg wrote:
Sounds to me like the highpoint was the draw on the last bolt. If I booty that one, then come back the next day can I assume that the second-highest draw is also on the highpoint and booty that, too?


Behold, the klepto-gumbie mind at work!


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By Ryando Smithman
From Golden, CO
Dec 30, 2010
Just chillin'.

phillip wrote:
Behold, the klepto-gumbie mind at work!


I'm going to steal your mom, then do bad things to her. Hand jams, knee bars, and even the fist jam or two.


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By phillip
Dec 30, 2010

Ryando Smithman wrote:
I'm going to steal your mom, then do bad things to her. Hand jams, knee bars, and even the fist jam or two.


Aww, you're so cute! AND classy! ;)


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By Mike Willig
Dec 30, 2010
Ouray

Bob Packwood wrote:
Amazing. A reference to "The Burbs" right? I second your motion.



Thanks for acknowledging, bob! Yes, The Burbs.... I posted the clip earlier in the thread... the resemblence is quite remarkable...


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By Warren Scott
Dec 30, 2010

Where I am find Hippie Thief? I have some routes that I left gear on and I can't climb them anymore, and I broke my stick clip fending off bees in the Stronghold. Plus, next to his awesome goofiness, I will look positively manly, which is important when spraying non-stop about how I use to flash the routes blindfolded.


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By episteme
Dec 30, 2010

Here is my $0.02 on the question of “abandonment,” as someone who has practiced law for more than twenty years (with the caveat that I do not practice in Oregon and every jurisdiction is different):

Property is abandoned only if the intent of the owner was to relinquish ownership rights, i.e., to give away the property (there are cases, not applicable here, where certain property is deemed abandoned if the owner can’t be located and a lot of time has gone by). If I leave my umbrella at a restaurant, it is not "abandoned." If I set my pack down and leave it unattended, for an hour or a month, I have not abandoned it, so long as I intend to come back for it. If you leave draws on a route for a few days to work it, you have not thereby declared that you no longer want them. “Finders keepers” is a nursery rhyme, not a succinct summary of personal property law.

Hence, before you make off with personal property, you had better have good reason to believe it is abandoned. Here, all indications were that the draws were left on these very hard routes temporarily while someone worked them. If I were the judge, in a bench trial, and this guy’s defense was that he mistakenly thought the draws had been “abandoned,” well, let’s just say he wouldn’t fare too well.

By the way, neither land managers nor the police make the laws. Legislators and judges do that. That some land manager has an opinion on a matter of property law doesn’t make that opinion the law.


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By Brian
From North Kingstown, RI
Dec 30, 2010

Tyson Anderson wrote:
If it's true it isn't libel. Period.


This has nothing to do with the scumbag that stole the draws but...

Libel dosen't have to be true. If I publish a vicious rumor about someone (for example...they have some STD) they can successfully sue me even if it is true. All they have to do is prove that my intent was soley to harm them through defamation.

Google it.


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By Peter Stokes
From Them Thar Hills
Dec 30, 2010
Wall Street, Moab, UT

episteme wrote:
“Finders keepers” is a nursery rhyme, not a succinct summary of personal property law.


Sanity returns to this thread (if only for a while)....


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By DEF
From CT
Dec 30, 2010

I love how some people have taken to defending these actions due to the specific laws being poorly defined and arguments relating to ethics... This has nothing to do with 'the law', it's not illegal for Westboro Baptist Church to protest at soldiers' funerals...but anybody with any common sense knows that they should all get PUNCHED IN THE MOUTH. Of course Chucky in this video isn't quite THAT extreme, but he's breaking rule # 1 on this site... don't be a jerk. He knew what he was doing, nobody wants to take him to court, just stone him in the court of public opinion.


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By P LaDouche
From CO
Dec 30, 2010

We should call this website Mountain Pinkpoint for the new year.

What I want to know is when did the pinkpointers start calling the shots in the climbing community?


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By Brian Abram
From Columbia, SC
Dec 30, 2010
Brian Abram, leading pitch 2 of Dinkus Dog on the South Side of Looking Glass.  Kyle Sox is belaying.

A bit about defamation in Oregon

Truth appears to be an "absolute defense" against libel in Oregon, though the truth of what occurred in this case is by no means certain.

Requirements for the finders of lost and abandoned property in Oregon

Some perhaps irrelevant links:

In Arches NP, ropes left longer then 24 hours are "abandoned:"
www.nps.gov/arch/planyourvisit/climbing.htm

The American Safe Climbing Association admits that even bolts are probably considered abandoned:
www.safeclimbing.org/about_overview.htm

Removable draws left at Rumney for more than 14 days are considered abandoned:
www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/white_mountain/recreation/climbing/>>>

In Yosemite, fixed ropes are abandoned property (even if this is lightly enforced):
www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/climbing.htm


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By Mike Anderson
From Dayton, OH
Dec 30, 2010

I am amazed by some of the arrogance in this thread. How can you say you've never sport climbed, then go on to lecture people about it? I fully understand if fixed draws rub you the wrong way, but have some bloody humility and admit that maybe you don't know everything there is to know about everything.

I wouldn't go into a donkey-f***ing thread and tell people what lube to use, but I bet some of you guys would....


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By Lee Jenkins
From Buena Vista, Colorado
Dec 30, 2010
Pingora Left Side Cracks - Wind River Range. July 2013

-sp wrote:
You know, I'd love to think I would have kept my cool, but I really think it was probably better they found this douche bag rather than me. Because if I hadn't given him the neck-punch he so rightly deserved, I would at the very least, have made him donate ALL his gear, his shoes, burned his stupid hat, and then held him down while I shaved his thieving hipster beard.



Yeah, I would have dragged (I mean DRAGGED)is sorry ass to the Police at a minimum!


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By P LaDouche
From CO
Dec 30, 2010

Lee Jenkins wrote:
Yeah, I would have dragged (I mean DRAGGED)is sorry ass to the Police at a minimum!


The police have pinkpointer laws?


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By Lee Jenkins
From Buena Vista, Colorado
Dec 30, 2010
Pingora Left Side Cracks - Wind River Range. July 2013

-sp wrote:
It's clearly drawn - when it's not yours and it's not "lost" by someone else, it's theft. He is a filthy fucking thief, end of story.


right on bro!


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By Lee Jenkins
From Buena Vista, Colorado
Dec 30, 2010
Pingora Left Side Cracks - Wind River Range. July 2013

Cindy Mitchell wrote:
Does anyone from the springs know his name? I climb down there quite frequently and hope my pack doesn't come up missing because I left it at the bottom of a crag.


Yeah Ditto. Bad Karma for this guy for 2011...


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By Lee Jenkins
From Buena Vista, Colorado
Dec 30, 2010
Pingora Left Side Cracks - Wind River Range. July 2013

episteme wrote:
Here is my $0.02 on the question of “abandonment,” as someone who has practiced law for more than twenty years (with the caveat that I do not practice in Oregon and every jurisdiction is different): Property is abandoned only if the intent of the owner was to relinquish ownership rights, i.e., to give away the property (there are cases, not applicable here, where certain property is deemed abandoned if the owner can’t be located and a lot of time has gone by). If I leave my umbrella at a restaurant, it is not "abandoned." If I set my pack down and leave it unattended, for an hour or a month, I have not abandoned it, so long as I intend to come back for it. If you leave draws on a route for a few days to work it, you have not thereby declared that you no longer want them. “Finders keepers” is a nursery rhyme, not a succinct summary of personal property law. Hence, before you make off with personal property, you had better have good reason to believe it is abandoned. Here, all indications were that the draws were left on these very hard routes temporarily while someone worked them. If I were the judge, in a bench trial, and this guy’s defense was that he mistakenly thought the draws had been “abandoned,” well, let’s just say he wouldn’t fare too well. By the way, neither land managers nor the police make the laws. Legislators and judges do that. That some land manager has an opinion on a matter of property law doesn’t make that opinion the law.


I agree. I have 3 family member/attorneys (fun group to party with..NOT!) My wife had a pack stolen at a parking lot in the Tetons a few years ago. She set it down and forgot about it while we went for a short hike. Came back and its gone, gone gone... the Park service took our claim and said it was simple theft. We never got it back of course...


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