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Colorado Thief caught in the act at Smith
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By Allen Sanderson
From Oootah
Dec 29, 2010

Julius Beres wrote:
I would be interested in hearing from a lawyer, but I assume this is an ethics question and not a legal one. My assumption is that what he was doing was not legally theft. But I am curious where the line is drawn. If someone takes my car parked on a public street it is theft. If I put a $20 bill down on a public street and someone takes it, it is definitely not considered theft. Both are my property and both are left at the same place, but there is a distinction made. I don't want to get into a debate on whether it is right or wrong to leave draws, but I am curious what the legal grounds are for leaving your property on public lands, and whether you are forfeiting your property rights. If I go do an alpine route and I leave my tent at the base, I assume no one has the right to take it. However, do I have the same legal standing if I backpack in 2 weeks before and leave a bunch of gear in the woods? The argument would be the same as for fixed draws... it is hard to do an alpine route carrying all the gear at once, so I stashed some of it... but do I have a right to claim someone that took it is a thief?


Land managers have pretty much said any gear left on routes is considered abandonment of property. As such, a LEO would probably not get involved other than to keep the peace as it is a civil matter. Kind of like when the repo guy gets busted by the "owner" yet has the vehicle jacked up but has not left. The LEO ain't going to do much but keep it civil. Though some might encourage the right thing to be done.

Draws on routes are obviously going to be returned to whether someone is coming back the next afternoon or week. Some are "personal" property while others are "community" property. When a route has draws from top to bottom it is obviously not bootie. If someone is Jonsing to take them down for what ever reason (safety, unsightly, want to use their own draws, etc) then efforts should be made to return them to the "owner". Even if they leave them clipped to the anchors at the top.

Regardless of ones personal feelings on the draws left on routes issue, this douche bag was just helping himself to "free" gear. He is not a climber or part of the climbing community. Just a douche bag that needs to called out and ostracized where ever he may schlep his sorry azz.


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By Scott O
From California
Dec 29, 2010
Batman Pinnacle

Julius Beres wrote:
I would be interested in hearing from a lawyer, but I assume this is an ethics question and not a legal one. My assumption is that what he was doing was not legally theft. But I am curious where the line is drawn. If someone takes my car parked on a public street it is theft. If I put a $20 bill down on a public street and someone takes it, it is definitely not considered theft. Both are my property and both are left at the same place, but there is a distinction made. I don't want to get into a debate on whether it is right or wrong to leave draws, but I am curious what the legal grounds are for leaving your property on public lands, and whether you are forfeiting your property rights. If I go do an alpine route and I leave my tent at the base, I assume no one has the right to take it. However, do I have the same legal standing if I backpack in 2 weeks before and leave a bunch of gear in the woods? The argument would be the same as for fixed draws... it is hard to do an alpine route carrying all the gear at once, so I stashed some of it... but do I have a right to claim someone that took it is a thief?


I am not a lawyer, but I know that the standard used by Yosemite is that property left for greater than 24 hours can be considered abandoned.


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By phillip
Dec 29, 2010

Tevis Blom wrote:
Something about the people climbing 14s makes them think the cliff is theirs to deposit their junk on. Maybe the elites should clean up their crap like the rest of us moderate losers.


If you had any idea how much Ian contributes to Smith Rock climbing, and the upkeep of the park, your head would implode from the irony of these statements.


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By P LaDouche
From CO
Dec 29, 2010

phillip wrote:
If you had any idea how much Ian contributes to Smith Rock climbing, and the upkeep of the park, your head would implode from the irony of these statements.


So if I were to move to Bend and help maintain Smith I could put up draws on all the 5.9s and leave them there?


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By phillip
Dec 29, 2010

P LaDouche wrote:
So if I were to move to Bend and help maintain Smith I could put up draws on all the 5.9s and leave them there?


That would cost a lot for one person, gumbies and nOObs would steal them, AND you'd have to settle for pinkpoints.


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By PTZ
From Chicago/Colorado
Dec 29, 2010
Where? Wouldn't you like to know. You have to buy me a beer, then I will tell you.

If you leave your shit laying around or on a route it can get stolen.
"Instant Karma is gonna get ya"-John Lennon

Everyone get the lesson learned; don't leave stuff around for idiots to decide its theirs.
P.S. nice rap video, where that fits in to all this I am not sure.


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Dec 29, 2010
Bocan

sonvclimbing wrote:
This guy is a thief. No doubt. To kill over it, beat him sensless or make fun of him = something wrong with you.


Maybe I have the east coast up bringing, but if I catch you stealing my stuff?? I don't know about a beating, but you'd probably catch one in the mouth.

Not to make a deal of it, but what would you suggest as you seemingly can't even make fun of a person blatantly stealing? No fricken way you stick clip up a 5.14 and DON'T know what you're doing is wrong. I don't really advocate violence, but that dude would have been handing my draws back pretty quickly, not racking them. Oh and to emphasize the point, HE STOLE THE ANCHOR BINERS!! I don't consider that fixed gear. Kudos to you guys for talking rationally to a guy that was lying in your face about stealing.

And I don't really care about the fixed / not fixed thing but in the wise words of Masta Ace....
Leave ya bike outside, come back outside, I guarantee your shit gone.


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By Ryando Smithman
From Golden, CO
Dec 29, 2010
Just chillin'.

PTZ wrote:
"Instant Karma is gonna get ya"-John Lennon


Wonder what Johnny boy did to get shot in the skull.

In the infamous words of the gun:

"Bang"


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By 1Eric Rhicard
Dec 29, 2010
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

Should have called the cops right away. Bet they would have found a ton of stolen property in his car and maybe something else that would have put him in jail for a while.


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By Mike Willig
Dec 29, 2010
Ouray

am i the only one who thinks he looks like Hans Klopek?


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By Phil Lauffen
From The Bubble
Dec 29, 2010
RMNP skiing. Photo by Nodin de Saillan

damn colorado climbers. kleptomaniacs...


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By SW Marlatt
From Arvada, CO
Dec 29, 2010
wcp

phillip wrote:
Third, your idea of redpointing vs pinkpointing while sport climbing is archaic. The bolt is the protection. Because sport climbs have fixed pro, sport climbers don't get excited by the act of hanging draws. It's already been decided where the pro is by the route equip-er, thus there's nothing mentally challenging about hanging draws- it simply adds contrived difficulty to redpoint attempts.


So - also no difference between leading a route with pre-placed pro and toproping the same route? After all, it is the climbing that matters, not the mucking around with pro.


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By Coppolo
From Denver, CO
Dec 29, 2010
Sunrise in Stevens gulch

This guy is brilliant; an asshole, but brilliant...

- He makes a good chunk of cash reselling free gear; he cannot suffer any legal ramifications; and as for his conscience...even the climbing community he steals from can't come to a consensus regarding the ethics pertaining to gear on routes.

-I live in NYC, I climb in the Gunks, we don't leave gear, but we also don't have much fixed gear to leave it on.

-Leaving draws on a route in absentia implies, to me, some sense of ownership over that line for the duration of the project....something I'm confident we're all against.


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By Paul Davidson
Dec 29, 2010

Eric Rhicard wrote:
Should have called the cops right away. Bet they would have found a ton of stolen property in his car...


+1

This guy is pretty clearly a common thief.
Not a climber, a thief.
He has a BS answer to any question and the women sit around acting uninterested. They've got a real scam going there.

Like Eric says, you open this mofo's trunk, I bet you find a lot of the racks that have been reported stolen over the past year.

What time of day did this incident occur ?


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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Dec 29, 2010

Guy deserves a beatdown for the bad hippie beard and stupid hat alone, add the thievery and he's close to capital punishment territory.


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By phillip
Dec 29, 2010

SW Marlatt wrote:
So - also no difference between leading a route with pre-placed pro and toproping the same route? After all, it is the climbing that matters, not the mucking around with pro.


Picnic Lunch Wall is 550ft tall. It'd be tricky to toprope.


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 29, 2010
El Chorro

I think you guys handled the situation very well and I think we can all learn a bit about how to keep your cool from the video. But did you really have to throw out the "that's a 5.14a" comment? Sure he was stealing your draws; but if they had been on a 5.10 wouldn't it still be stealing? Why does it matter what grade the climb is?


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By Olaf Mitchell
From Paia, Maui, Hi,
Dec 29, 2010
rockerwaves

www.tagtele.com/videos/voir/21907


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By SubantZ
From Georgia SON!!!!
Dec 29, 2010
Playin around at Yonah

NOFF wrote:
SUBANTZ also addmitted to being a hold chipper. Please go to seclimbers.org , and look under the topic: Please stop CHIPPING Toxic Wall that I posted.


Yeah and I sniff glue while I am reinforcing holds.
Let me make this clear I have never taken a draw. I do sport climb. I also have never chipped a hold,
What I have done was troll the internet trying to get a rise out of U.
So my work here is done.
Thank you and come again.


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By Olaf Mitchell
From Paia, Maui, Hi,
Dec 29, 2010
rockerwaves

WELL YEAH !


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By Tradoholic
Dec 29, 2010

JasonH wrote:
Now, look here Gumby - I realize that you can bumble your way up slabs with a knee-high tube socks and seven different belay devices clipped to every loop on your harness and then proceed to the nearest bar, harness still on, and start to loudly talk about the way-rad 5.9 offwidth you and your bro "totally crushed" (on TR of course) before logging onto your favorite website and lecturing others about ethics (solid, well-grounded ethics based on MONTHS! of experience). But really dude, no one cares about your gumby opinions. Fixed draws are a long-established tradition at places like Smith Rocks (dating back to the 80s) and no one, not even the park service, has a problem with them (aside from mental midgets with internet access). You see, its the bumblers like you and the dimwitted things you write that encourage half-lobotomized, fez-wearing thieves to act. It was just lucky that this clown ran into some extremely nice locals who were willing to lecture him instead of pounding him. We can only hope you get caught by similarly nice climbers who are willing to listen to the three-legged hamster in your head spinning its wheel as your mouth spits out stupid excuses. Unfortunately, I think the Smith thief will likely seem like a rocket scientist compared to you. Now you go get yourself some "stolden" draws!


Huston, this only confirms that I have been right along, you have gone totally sporto and there is no saving you now. Even DEFENDING sportos on a public forum. HAVE YOU GONE MAD!?!?!?
I hereby declare all of your leads NULL AND VOID based on the overwhelming evidence that you condone the Pink Point. If you would please send me your man card via first class mail immediately I may allow you to keep what small cache of trad gear you have left.

BTW, J-Tree last week in March, Lohre is in. Trad climbing ONLY.


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By Hank Caylor
Administrator
From Golden, CO
Dec 29, 2010
Lone goat..

Ryan Williams wrote:
But did you really have to throw out the "that's a 5.14a" comment? Sure he was stealing your draws; but if they had been on a 5.10 wouldn't it still be stealing? Why does it matter what grade the climb is?


Because of the fact that the hippie/thief was on a wall littered with climbs so far out of his league, he could only be up to no good (stealing draws). Whatever, the kids jedi-mind talking certainly had that skanky dirt muffin all frazzled. Super classic.


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By Greg D
From Here
Dec 30, 2010
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />

il cop wrote:
Leaving draws on a route in absentia implies, to me, some sense of ownership over that line for the duration of the project....something I'm confident we're all against.


The best statement yet.

And my girlfriend's comment was quite good too.

"Which tool do you want to be?" The thief or the guy that thinks fixed draws are ok cause it was 14a.


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By jeff walker
Dec 30, 2010

interesting the number of people on this thread who think its okay for this fuzzy-faced fuckhead to steal shit just because it aint nailed down. seems like the old blame the victim thing: if you don't want your draws stolen then don't leave them hanging around on some route. right. the guy who steals shit isn't responsible but the guy who has his shit stolen is an idiot who should be more careful. load of bullshit, plain and simple. the guy is a thief and a weasel to boot. defending this dude's behavior makes you a weasel, too. it isn't complicated.


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By Owen Darrow
From Garmisch,
Dec 30, 2010
Nice view

Gotchau Bitch!


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