By pacoarg9
From west hartford, ct
Oct 28, 2009
| I don't think anyone in the climbing world can be called a cheater for anything they do because there are no written rules anywhere governing everyone.
If there were and they were broken then we can throw that word around. | 
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By JJ Brunner
From Simi Valley, CA
Oct 28, 2009
| Brian Abram wrote: If people can climb Pervertical Sanctuary without ropes, there is no need for ropes at all. Plus if you climb with ropes, you are depending on it, what if the rope fails or gets cut?" :) If Moonlight Butress is free soloed, that doesn't mean every other ascent deserves an asterisk or should be looked down upon for accomplishing it in "lesser style."
All I'm saying is O2 is just another device to depend on. And to back up my previous point, if the rope gets cut midclimb and you are still on the wall, yes, i would say if you cant get yourself out of that without a rope that you dont belong there. I realize that some falls are out of a climbers control and that they must depend on the rope, but I'm just saying that these dependent devices should be kept to a minimum. Also, I'm not saying anything about "levels of accomplishment", I personally don't care if anyone has done a route before me or not, I'm just looking at this from a safety standpoint. |
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By JJ Brunner
From Simi Valley, CA
Oct 28, 2009
| matt snider wrote: So does this mean that since Moon Light Buttress has been freed in a day I shouldn't bother aiding it in 2. Or Lowe route on the N side of Angels landing has been freed, so I shouldn't even try it on aid, If I do make it up Moon light on aid is it less of an accomplishment? I hope it hasn't come to that. I don't know if I'll ever climb 13a trad.
I'm not trying to put down other's accomplishments, I'm looking at it purely from a safety view. But personally, I'd feel a greater sense of accomplishment climbing without O2 rather than climbing with it. |
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By JJ Brunner
From Simi Valley, CA
Oct 28, 2009
| Sergio P wrote: Someone can be in amazing shape and great climber and still not be able to climb into the death zone w/o O2. There is too much predetermined genetics to diminish someone's feats just b/c they used O2. As for if you need O2 you don't belong there. Does that mean you look down on every scuba diver and astronaut? I would love to be on a plane with you one day when the cabin pressure drops and you refuse to use the air masks based on the theory that we simply don't belong there. How would you rate someone who climbs Everest via the cattle route w/o O2 against someone who climbs a new route (if there are any left) using O2.
Once again, I believe that people climb mountains for their own sense of accomplishment so I'm not going to judge other people's sense of accomplishment. I was speaking in terms of safety. As for climbing compared to scuba diving and flying, in climbing O2 is optional. If you can't climb a peak without O2, I say, go back down, train more and increase your efficiency and try again. Scuba diving and flying require O2 and I don't have anything against them, but I believe in climbing there should be minimal use of devices that when it comes down to it, you depend on them 100% for safety. |
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By Brian Abram
From Colatown in South Cackalacky
Oct 28, 2009
| Thats s a good point about possibly needing to consider not getting on something that for you demands reliance on too much potentially failing gear, JJ. And you're right.
But then to me, that makes it more of a personal responsibility issue. |
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By Forestvonsinkafinger
From Iowa
Oct 28, 2009
| As a SCUBA diver, let me first say that one breathes compressed air (21% o2, like you are breathing now), and that breathing pure oxygen would kill you. As a free diver as well (sans BCD, air,) I can tell you that they are separate forms of a similar sport (diving). Free diving may take more discipline, practice, and respect of limits than then "walk in the door" ability to SCUBA. Even though we may not be able to compare them like mountaineering, it may raise the question, is climbing with O2 a different sport form altogether? Thus perhaps deserving an asterisk either way for clarification? |
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By tobe945
From Boulder, CO
Oct 31, 2009
| it's an interesting question. I'm completely against using supplemental O2 on any climb. But we use crampons, warm clothing, and all sorts of other things that I'm sure you could make an argument that using them is "cheating."
What if the tallest mountain the world literally could not be climbed without Oxygen. Let's say its elevation was 50,000ft. Oxygen in a lot of cases is used to enhance the safety of the climber using it. This is what crampons do, what ropes do, and what a belay does. You wouldn't do without those things. I think the answer is that if you can climb an 8,000m peak without oxygen you shouldn't use it. But everyone's physiologically different, and some people just don't do as well at altitude. I don't think we should look down on them for that. |
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By Mike Lane
From Centennial, CO
Nov 1, 2009
| tobe945 wrote: But everyone's physiologically different, and some people just don't do as well at altitude. I don't think we should look down on them for that.
Oh yes we should!
I've come around from my earlier stance and now feel we should celebrate genetic superiority. Otherwise we are all just the same. |
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By Buff Johnson
From Coniferous, CO
Nov 1, 2009
| Sorry Man-pris, you're just as eunuch as the next man. |
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By Mike Lane
From Centennial, CO
Nov 1, 2009
| Ooooohhhhh my head..........
I shouldv'e left those things in the closet |
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By John Maguire
From Boulder, CO
Nov 1, 2009
| JML wrote: Why do you care if they climb it with 02 or not? Do YOUR thing and quit worrying about everybody else.
+1 |
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By Forestvonsinkafinger
From Iowa
Nov 1, 2009
| Perhaps while the number of people climbing with oxygen is high, and it is perhaps a greater accomplishment to climb without it, an oxygen free ascent may benefit from an asterisk for extra acnknowledgment. |
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By Mike Lane
From Centennial, CO
Nov 1, 2009
| 20 of them will get you a free slurpee at 7-11 |
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By pacoarg9
From west hartford, ct
Nov 2, 2009
| Mike Lane wrote: So your argument that if you need O2 you don't belong there has a component of genetic favoritism similar to the Ubermench concept in Mien Kampf. And I find this sort of physiological elitism repugnant, especially when the opinion is formed not from being there but solely from reading.
You are right in that I should have experience at high altitude before I form such strong opinions. Like you Mike, my opinions have changed a bit from my original post due to the validity of other peoples arguments.
So thanks to everyone who responded and gave their opinions which has helped me understand the subject a little bit more. |
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By Ron L Long
From Out yonder in Wisco.
Nov 2, 2009
| pacoarg9 wrote: I don't think anyone in the climbing world can be called a cheater for anything they do because there are no written rules anywhere governing everyone.
The only "cheating" is if you do not acknowledge the style in which you climb. Climb with supplemental oxygen, state that. Aide versus free, state that. Head point vs onsight, state that....... |
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By Ian F.
From Phx
Nov 2, 2009
| Hmmmm.....what about going without bottled O2 and smoking cigs the whole way up. That's got to be a first, and a great platform for the modern Malboro Man platform. A habitual smoker who is just a badass and gets paid mega dollars to dominate extreme sports.
Gonna start working on that. Way better than going O2 free. |
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By pacoarg9
From west hartford, ct
Nov 2, 2009
| Ron L Long wrote: The only "cheating" is if you do not acknowledge the style in which you climb. Climb with supplemental oxygen, state that. Aide versus free, state that. Head point vs onsight, state that.......
Fair enough.....anyone who lies about the style in which they accomplished a climb deserves to be laughed at and ridiculed...in my opinion |
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By Joseph D'Agostino
Nov 2, 2009
| Just my 2 cents, but I believe that any climb at high altitude is a major feat. The use of oxygen is a strictly personal decision, just as whether to use a GriGri or an ATC. Oxygen is frequently used on many summit attempts as a life preservation and life saving addition. Just as some climbers carry knives to aid in the event of an emergency, oxygen can serve the same purpose, to aid in the event of an emergency. |
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By bevans
Nov 3, 2009
| Long as you take your O2 bottles back down with you ... I don't care how you do it. |
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