Hello everyone, im bored at work and find this topic to be relevant and important to discuss.

I am currently taking an EMT-B course and the first thing we are taught to do besides ABC's in an emergency is to get the patient on oxygen asap.

Now, I have never been climbing at a very high altitude and cannot speak with much experience about levels of hypoxia when mountaineering...hopefully this will change in a few years.

However I have read enough and know enough to understand when something is being abused. Oxygen is used for emergency situations!!!!....why is it that these days people are relying on this to even make a summit attempt?

The only way I think oxygen should be used is if you have already climbed the mountain without it. (ex. guides who have summited w/o o2 using it to be stronger for the sake of helping a client in the future).

I feel that if you know you can't make it without this emergency medication, you do not belong on the mountain.

There are sooooo many peaks around the world...why not climb something you are physically able to do without relying on something that is used for emergencies.

The only way I think oxygen should be used is if you attempted to climb without it and are coming down because you are too hypoxic and need emergency help. or like i stated before....you climbed the mountain already without it and are now guiding people on it.

Thoughts?

I won't ever climb high enough to need it, but I found a recent article in Outside magazine interesting.

http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200910/mountains-th>>>>>

Apparently, if you climb any higher than about 16,000 feet, at a rate faster than 1000 feet per day, it is almost guaranteed that you will have permanent brain damage that shows up on brain scans, even years after the climb. They said it occurs to the vast majority on Aconcagua and even to about half of climbers on Mont Blanc (15,771). Real damage at that altitude blows my mind.

I don't think there's anything worthy of an asterisk about being smart and avoiding brain damage. Perhaps it's been looked down on too hastily? Should you get an asterisk for using other tools designed to keep you healthy? A helmet? A jacket? A rope? Those things are considered standard. Perhaps oxygen should be as well.

I guess it's the sport climbing culture, but something about this makes me wonder why we're so quick to judge others for what they accomplish and how they get there. I always thought of climbing as being between you and your partner. Who is someone else to put a footnote by your name?

It's important to remember that oxygen hasn't just come into vogue "these days". It was popularized way back in the days of Mallory's Everest attempts, et al. Getting their rigs to function properly was a huge step in their progress.
If I climb Everest, do I really get a summit certificate? Cool.
I still do believe that folks like Barry Bonds need asterisks, but they're getting paid the big bucks to do what they do within a set of guidelines.

No. Unless everybody that uses ropes and pro, etc gets one too. If you can't free solo it naked, you do not belong on the mountain.

Why do you care if they climb it with 02 or not? Do YOUR thing and quit worrying about everybody else.

Abram cued important points. The sport of high altitude climbing, has developed differently, and around different goals. One may have a conversation with someone that has been short-roped to the top of Everest who may not even know what a piton is. He still accomplished his goal and it was self-fulfilling, which is what many people climb for. Now, if he left all his trash on the mountain, then he may deserve the scarlet letter (*).

As for the brain damage, I would like to see more evidence. I know Chuck Huss has data on the physical effects of high altitude climbing that may be supportive. However, we need more samples to produce viable data. What about Viesteurs, Messner, etc. They seem to have normal brain functions. Also, which part of the brain is it damaging. If it is the pre-frontal lobe, then sign me up...Free Lobotomy...!!!

Good points by all, especially Abram.

Its not that im trying to take away from anyones accomplishments. Climbing a very high peak with or without oxygen is a great accomplishment either way. I just think think that when people put ALL of their trust in this equipment and then when it fails they blame the providers for endangering their lives, it seems like a whole lot of bull.

I just have soooo much respect for this sport that I hate reading about people blaming others for their own lack of judgement. I feel that some guiding companies have facilitated certain goals (peaks)for people that have no business trying to attain them without putting in the necessary time and effort to acquire the experience.

Lets face it, high altitude climbing requires experience...and a lot of it. When sh*t hits the fan, like it sometimes does with this sport, very few people know how to react because responsibility has been taken away from them for a fixed price.

I find that to be unacceptable.

For many people the only goal is to reach the top of the mountain. The struggle to reach the top is secondary to standing on top.

Most people who have the money to chase these summits also want the latest technology to assist them to get there. Oxygen is simply another piece of their standard equipment that can assist them in making the ascent less arduous and difficult. For them it is the same thing as having a warm down jacket.

Many of these people I wouldn't even call climbers because they use porters, guides, fixed ropes and other artificial aids to gain the summit. They are more like outdoor recreationists.

The real climbers are people like Steve House and Vince Anderson who climbed the Rupal Face alpine style, sans oxygen.

I apologize for my opinion but i find it difficult to put Oxygen in the same category as a rope, helmet, and jacket.

Hmm...Roberts makes the important distinction between climber, and client. I find it unfortunate the contemporary liability that all "free enterprise" must carry, and also sick that people can purchase something that most have to earn (summit). And that places like Nepal have become developed nations by selling their sacred peaks. What is the answer?

Perhaps people on oxygen do not belong on mountains, but will they go away? In fact if trends continue, not only will they advance, but so will the technology. Blood doping will become common practice, Gamaw suits, vaso-diolating cardio-retarders and other pharma-coutermeasures, high altitude simulation training capsules. Until Nepal Railways Corporation Ltd. bores a cogwheel trail inside Everest with 5 round trip departures a day, and all that equipment will go on the Boulder Craigslist.

to JML:

The reason I care is because this nonsense takes respect away from a sport that I love and am trying to make as big a part of my life as possible. Here I am making baby steps to eventually gain enough experience to be a great climber and hopefully one day an even better guide. Meanwhile people with loads of money and no appreciation for the years of hard work that goes into becoming a mountaineer are bringing bad karma and ideals into this vertical world, in the process giving this sport a bad name.

If you want to use O2 to climb at high altitude go ahead. Just don't pay John Q. Sherpa to haul all your survival gear up there with you and then claim that you are a mountaineer. Give him some credit. On the flip side don't blame him if he decides to quit and turns around, thus screwing up your summit.

About the Outside article, it seems that there would need to be scans both before and after high altitude climbing before any correlation (much less causation) between short times at altitude and brain damage could be conclusively proven.

Are there a lot of advertisements for O2 kits in the mag?

• ** climbed the route with nomics

Since climbing any of the highest peaks without O2 is still very very uncommon and really dangerous, I don't think an asterisk is needed at all. Actually it's still the other way around. A sucessfull ascent without O2 deserves one!! The more one reads about high altitude climbing it becomes very clear that this is true!! It's still the very hard core, and mostly the blessed that can even consider going without. I don't think you have read enough at all to have the opinion you have. Just try it with oxygen and your opinion might change. If you wish to be ethical, bring back the used bottles and maybe a few others that have been left behind!!

"I just think think that when people put ALL of their trust in this equipment and then when it fails they blame the providers for endangering their lives, it seems like a whole lot of bull."

Can you provide some specific examples of where this has happened? I'd be curious to read them.

Steve

This is a bit off topic, but relevent to the thread drift, I think:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33470581/ns/us_news-life/

PLBs can have this downside, certainly. They are a useful locator tool though. One thing that could help curb inappropriate use is the development of text messaging. Which can also help better in a real situation to get needed items to a party more hastily.

Granted, the party in question within the focus of the article will probably just text back: need help immediately, or some such.

Brian H is right, though...I'd like more info before having a generalized opinion. The studies seemed small, but that may be just the article not elaborating enough or something. I don't know.

Regardless, it still is compelling information that may actually be representative of the truth. No one can say it's not at this point. It's at least worthy of consideration and further study.

Shit!

I'm brain damaged.

I sortof suspected that already though.

"Similar effects were seen on Aconcagua. Most of the eight amateur climbers never got above 21,000 feet, and one reached only 18,000 feet. Still, none of the scans came back normal. Four of the climbers suffered multiple subcortical lesions, seven had widespread enlargement of their VR spaces, and all showed signs of cortical atrophy—even though half of the team displayed either no symptoms of mountain sickness or mild ones during the climb."

Haha, that explains so many things..Well not really, but I'll keep it as a handy excuse :-)

Brain Damage Submitted By: Christian on Oct 26, 2009

So should we not give Neil Armstrong credit for reaching the moon b/c he used oxygen?

The idea that O2 is used only in emergencies is silly.

Armstrong was weak, Lovell said he could do it unassisted

Some of my opinions were formed after the information I read in the book " High Crimes".

in one of the expeditions, they bought used and refilled oxygen tanks which worked down low but failed at high altitude. the expeditions leaders and guides were blamed for this and recieved a lot of negative press. Families of the deceased put these guys on trial for "manslaughter".

While I wish I had personal experience to site in regards to oxygen use...I do not, so it is fine if my opinions are discredited. I just thought that when I started to climb I was entering a world where ethics and respect for the difficulties of the sport were recognized.

I guess this thread was more of a vent into describing my issues with people who show no respect or appreciation for the complexities that go along with the sport.

i guess, like a lot of other things in life people want the easy road to the top.

i thought that wasn't possible with mountaineering...i guess i was wrong

Three cheers for brain damage!

On the summit. I think that's Mt. Huntington on the lower right. Submitted By: Monomaniac on Oct 26, 2009

point taken JML, i appreciate your perspective...i'll let you know if i ever get to that level